I think what Matt was comparing was the brutality of each of them. Not the rules. I have only seen the more popular clips of the higher profile guys like the Shamrock's and Rutten. I will take your word for the rest, I have no idea.
Some guys didn't tap, or tried to rope escape, and broke legs. But not really that brutal. Hard to compare soccer kicks and ground knees from guys 50lbs bigger than the other(now banned in orgs that allow them if the weight disparity is X) to open hand palm strikes.
Geez, so much is wrong here: for one, Ken competed in Pancrase and the UFC at the same time, starting in 1993; however Pancrase was his main focus at the time. Heck, Pancrase was also Frank's original focus---he was in Pancrase 3 years before he started fighting in the UFC. Closed fist strikes to the body were allowed, but they weren't allowed to the head. Dear God, Pancrase had a 10-count??? How horrible!!! So do boxing and kickboxing. They're not exactly feminized by it. Each combat sport has its own rules---they're not pillowfighting. I guarantee you've never done any kind of training TLC because otherwise you'd know that palm heel strikes can be just as devastating as a punch---and in Pancrase, they didn't wear gloves. A barehanded palmheel strike has one less point of flexion than a fist---namely the wrist. Barehand palmheel strikes were what Bas Rutten used to break Funaki's nose and cheekbones---not exactly a puss move. Keith Hackney demonstrated a pretty hard one against Emmanuel Yarborough, for instance. Once again, nobody said Frank wasn't a legit LHW, we said he was a SMALL LHW, which any sane person knows he was. When he fought Tito for the LHW title at UFC 22, Tito outweighed him by 20-25lbs. Calling Tito Ortiz the original Thiago Alves is moronic. Alves is predominantly a standup striker whereas Tito was predominantly a ground and pound wrestler.
pancrase needs to be credited somehow for being one of the first successful mma promotions out there. ken and bas were true pioneers along w/ the japanese catch-wrestlers who introduced them and gave them opportunities to revolutionize the sport. either way, roids or no roids, ken was one of the best guys from the beginning and the first true super star of UFC to bring that public appeal. frank wasn't relevant until a bit later. even then, frank never generated that popularity that ken, even past his prime was able to garner. comparing today's rules to pancrase's is ridiculous. shit had to be organized and regulated and the wwf-like rules sufficed for whatever they could come up w/ back then. remember, before pancrase, there was that fake mma wrestling which i'm sure where pancrase got their rules from. bad news brown (an olympic judoka) also played an integral part during that development.
Pancrase fucking sucked. I don't see why I would give it credit when it was Vale Tudo that pioneered the sport. I watch some of Frank's fights back then and the shit is barely watchable. It's like a bastardized version of submission wrestling, but with palm strikes and kicks. Rope escapes. :: I'm surprised people didn't start hooking the leg to finish matches either. Also, I once saw Bas KO, as in count out a guy with a palm strike to the body. :laughing:
i have to agree that it was not fun to watch. i remember seeing taka michinoku on one of those events and i knew him from his brieft stint at wwf with great sasuke a while back. whoever he fought, kicked the shit outta him. that fight at least, looked pretty legitimate. also, looking at youtube clips of bas vs. the shamrocks, those fights were not all that entertaining.
You might want to brush up on your reading comprehension because I never said either of those things. I said Frank was the better fighter and had the better career. But in a prime versus prime matchup, the bigger, stronger Ken manhandles Frank. Period. You can spin it any way you want but you can't make Frank bigger.
Ever as in ever or ever as in back in his prime ever? Because Nick Diaz straight up beat the will to fight out of him.
What the fuck are you talking about? Nick Diaz just fed it to him last year. Whether you want to call it manhandled or womanhandled, Diaz ended him! He was also about 40lbs lighter than Ken. Ken in his prime definitely would have been the biggest and best grappler that Frank would have faced, other than Bas, but that's not really a big deal since Ken was unwilling to fight his younger brother. Ken---in his prime and if Frank wasn't related to him---would have treated Frank like many other fighters in early Pancrase and UFC, someone who needed to get taken down and taken apart.
The latter. I forgot the shot Shamrock even existed. He was probably equally shot as Renzo and Cesar when he fought them.
He fought and beat Tito, and Dan Henderson quite easily. Both were far more imposing and better than both Bas and Ken. Ken wasn't even a real HW, he was a LHW hyped up on steroids. Tito was bigger than him. That was when his walking weight was around 240lbs allegedly.
Please point this one out to the forum: when exactly did Frank Shamrock beat Dan Henderson in MMA competition? I've got a decent fight library and this bout is not in my collection. Now, you consider a green Tito Ortiz in the UFC to be far more imposing than Bas Rutten in Pancrase. Why is that? Is it because Tito gassed out and lost whereas Bas actually beat Frank twice? Is it because Bas used wussy palmheel strikes whereas Tito used manly fists?
No, because Bas couldn't wrestle for shit, and had an overrated ground game at that. Frank beat Dan in sub grappling as already stated.
I'm sorry there, but you are dissing Pancrase (where Frank lost) while citing a grappling match (no striking at all where Frank won)? :: Once again, Bas beat Frank twice in Pancrase, so Bas' shitty wrestling and overrated ground game beat Frank, but Tito was more imposing in your opinion because Tito got his ass beat in the UFC? I would think the winner against Frank would be more imposing to him---particularly since the winner had to use those wimpy palmheel strikes.
I like sub grappling. Pancrase is some fucked up, WWE style version of it. Its legitimacy ends as soon as you factor in rope escapes. Also, if the guys got too close to the end of the ring, instead of a restart, they put the guys on the feet. :atu: Kimbo could've survived under those rules. All you had to to was move your ass to the end of the ring and have the ref do al the work for you. Frank also beat Bas in his first ever fight, then dropped a disputed decision to him. Next fight he lost by a cut. Bas never really beat Frank cleanly and its Pancrase. Therefore its automatically disqualified from meaning anything. Kevin Randleman shat all over Bas, and he's the easiest guy to submit in the world. Tito was much better than Randleman.
Frank shamrock is better during franks time whenever i watch his old fights, it looks to me like he was one of the more evolve fighters out there. (btw never really saw some of his fights in pancrase, something really looks odd with their rules that it almost looks worked)
Word. Frank is one of the few older fighters that if he started his career right now, and he was in his prime with his SAME skillset, he'd have a BETTER record than what he has now.
You might not want to believe it TLC, but Buddy really worked you over in this thread. You flip-flopped all over the place. Don't let it get you down, Buddy is a badass.
for those who didnt see shamrock vs henderson, you can search it on youtube. henderson was just a wrestler at the time and it was quite evident that he didn't or hadnt learn to defend against submissions. it was pretty much the same when kevin jackson was armbarred in a few seconds vs. shamrock. all i can say about the shamrock brothers were that they were ahead of their time because they at least had the basis of what mma was about or what how it was going to be evolved.
I've seen the video, but could care less. It is really meaningless in this discussion. The fact that Frank submitted a wrestler with zero submission experience does little to boost TLC's case.
In Pancrase... Palm strikes...ring escapes ointlaugh: Frank also beat Bas in his first fight then lost a disputed decision then lost on a cut. Bas never beat Frank cleanly, even in shitty, rigged, pro wrestling bastarization Pancrase.
Wait, so you don't give any credit to Bas's wins over Frank because the rules were limiting, but you put weight in Frank's win over Dan in a sub tourney that allows zero striking and Dan was never a submission guy.?:dunno:
And therein lies the problem with his rationale. He basically ruins his own logic. The one thing that cannot be disputed is that both Frank and Ken fought Rutten in Pancrase. Ken owned Bas subbing him in both bouts. Meanwhile Frank fought tooth and nail with El Guapo and ended up going 1-2 without a clear victory. So as I said, TLC can spin, twist and turn, but in his prime Ken Shamrock was an absolute beast.
Sub wrestling.... You can easily win the match by wrestling and grinding a decision. Fitch does it all the time. And no, because Pancrase is a bastard sport while sub grappling is pure. Rope escapes fail.
The fact of the matter is that Henderson had an incredibly limited knowledge of submissions at that point. He's only been subbed in MMA by the Nog brothers and Anderson Silva, after being stunned by punches. That's not to discount Frank's ground game, it was quite good, although he almost completely abandoned it after his return to MMA. I'm not sure why people are debating about who would win between Frank and Ken based off of their fights with Rutten. According to Bas, he really worked on his ground game after getting knee barred by Ken, which seems to hold some truth. His submission victories took off after that fight, which is impressive for someone who is known primarily as a striker. Bas lost to Frank before his second fight with Ken, and beat him twice after claiming to have improve his ground game. Frank also claims to have not taken fighting very seriously until after losing to John Lober.
that is a TERRIBLE example. Fitch is TODAY's MMA fighter, who's adapted to rules and regulations that have evolved.
