James Toney got worse with every heavyweight fight he had up to the Peter fights, the first of which all but finished him as a fighter...he also happened to get fatter with every heavyweight fight up to Peter. I think any argument that Rahman was as good a fighter weighing in the upper 240's to 250's (like he did against Sanders, Ruiz and in the Tua rematch, even the Cole fight) as he was when he was weighing in the 220's and 230's is rather weak. If someone wants to go ahead and compare the punch outputs Rahman had in the first (234 1/2) and second (259) Tua fights, I'd love to see them...all I could find was some article saying Rahman averaged 84 punches thrown per round in the first fight and finished with only 695 thrown, total, in the rematch...and that was against a fighter, in Tua, who was 20 pounds heavier himself in the rematch...and I've never seen anybody try to make the argument he got any better by adding weight.
That was some bizarre ending. Austin out on his feet and hanging on for dear life. I don't think he actually knew where he was when he threw the cheap shot or while trying to take them both over the ropes. The fight could have been ended alot earlier. Round 5 and Austin hit the canvas and once up was out on his feet but Solis just didn't make the effort. Solis is either a very lazy fighter or can only fight in short bursts due to poor conditioning.When he lets the hands go its exciting though his accuracy is poor. Austin for the most part threw a weak jab and looks very awkward throwing punches technically. Austin should not be ranked anywhere near the top 10 again - at 40 years old any punch resistance he once possessed is gone. Doesn't say a great deal for Solis power that he took 10 rounds.
The Tua rematch was arguably Rahman's best performance in a distance fight. I believe it is his best performance other than Lewis 1.
This is a Dubblechin-like statement. "Best performance in a distance fight"...what is this, the VMA's? You can get cute with the language all you want, it won't change the fact that Rahman dominated an in-shape, still very much relevant Tua for about nine rounds - all of which went out the window when he was hit after the bell - something he couldn't do in the rematch against a much poorer version of the same fighter.
Well, we are talking about weight and its effect on performance so distance fights seems like a fair qualification. Tua wasn't any better when he was heavier or lighter. He has one single aberration fight and otherwise he has been the same fighter regardless of his weight. And Rahman dominated him when Rahman weighed 234 and when he weighed 259. According to you guys saying how important weight is, Rahman shouldn't have been able to get through 3 rounds at that weight.
One of Tua's handlers, the fellow that got Holy DQ'd, said that the problem with Tua was ALWAYS his weight. Tua was taking ice baths before Byrd to get his weight down, as the cold shock forces the body to burn fat. So too do roadwork and a low-fat diet.
But as has already been pointed out, they were both overweight...by about 20 pounds. The difference being that Rahman, as the bigger fighter with the better jab, was better equipped of the two to fight at a heavier weight. Tua, as the smaller fighter, rellied more on activity, something he had more of when he was lighter...as evidenced by the fact that when he weighed in the 220's he had two fights, against Izon and Ibeabuchi, that set records for punches thrown in twelve round heavyweight fights. Not that I'm suggesting punch output is, in any way, a product of something like conditioning. Even if you assume that Tua was the same fighter in the 220's as he was in the 240's....it doesn't explain why the rematch was closer (in scoring) than the first fight (through the bell to end the ninth round).
Underrated? More like undeterred. (and :bears: to you for that) And I'm not admitting anything....nor do I believe that everything in life has to be either underrated or overrated.
It's really absurd some of the arguments people try to make on these boards. Everyone desires to be the board contrarian...as though it's some great showing of intellect to see what the majority opinion is on a subject and taking the opposite point of view...occasionally it's nice when a contrary viewpoint is supported with something other than bullshit.
Cite to Tua/Izon breaking any punch stat records? I don't remember Tua being very active in that fight, at all. Tua fought better in the re against Rahman, but I still thought Rahman dominated him and showed no signs that his stamina was affected.
Took some digging, but at 9:40 they show a graphic...1574 thrown in Tua-Izonritei, second to the 1591 thrown in Ali-Frazier III...the difference being that Tua-Izonritei was 12 rounds and Ali-Frazier III was 14. So, as I stated, Tua had two fights where he combined with his opponent to break the heavyewight record for total punches thrown in a 12 round fight. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/00w2XCSbFUg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/00w2XCSbFUg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Toney moved like a fucking upturned turtle at heavyweight. Tua had more mobility than a heavyweight James Toney. Fat Foreman wasn't much better. Foot speed and balance are MUCH more effected generally than stamina.
Name Tua's best performances...let's say top 7 or so. While you're at it, name his worst 7 performances.
Now it's foot speed and balance that we are after?? Not stamina? Now Tua has more mobility than a heavyweight Toney? Can you give some examples of balance being affected by a guy being fat? Edit: I see earlier you said foot speed, balance, and heart on post 44 so I mischaracterized you changing things in this post. my bad. I don't think heart is related to weight, at all. Guys quit when they quit. Guys like Bowe and Toney don't like to train, but give it their all when they're in the ring. Foot speed...boxing isn't running. Even if extra weight makes a guy's footspeed slower, so what? A fat guy can usually take punches better than his slimmer self. And balance? Name some examples because I don't think balance is affected.
</P> I don't think those punch stats were because of Tua. As I remember, Izonritei played into Tua's game...kept throwing punches because Tua was easy to hit and Tua caught him late when Izon was worn out from punching. Tua did this several times. Anyway, I cannot find the punch stats online so if anyone cares to look up the fight, maybe they show punches per fighter in it.
Yes, that's my point from the start - food speed and balance are the biggest deficits. Been saying it for years. Stamina can be mitigated by just pacing yourself.....and carrying fat will only effect your stamina if you're a big mover anyway or are forced to move allot. It isn't gonna effect your ability to throw punches, if you're already in position. But your foot speed and balance are gonna be unavoidably diminished. And for guys like Klitschko opponents who are gonna have to cover distance and range quickly to get inside & stand a chance they might as well just not show up.
I think Vitali threw 2 punches per round fewer than Ibeabuchi did vs Tua in his fight with Arreola- off the top of my head he threw 802 punches in 10 completed rounds.
I think when a guy knows he isn't in peak condition he isn't gonna go through the fire he would if he's in peak condition. If you've given it your all in training there's no tomorrow. There's no better you reserved for next time, if you can't get the job done as you are you just aren't good enough and never will be. Fat guys don't always quit on their stool but you more often see them tacitly quit and stop trying to really win IMO. I think that's the basis for most quitting at any weight - an excuse a fighter has in his mind that means this just isn't his night and he'll do better next time. Of course guys like Bowe & Toney had so much pride and ego they would fight to the death at the drop of a hat. Everyone's different, it's just a trend I've noticed, not an iron clad law.
802 is no more precise a number than say......4. It's only precise if I am right. fuck it, I can throw out any old figure off the top of my head. It's not the top of my headness that should be impressing you, its that I am right. Damn you dumb. Vitali weighed 252 for that fight....so I am just throwing the weight figure out there too. Its not the weight that is stopping guys from throwing lots of shots, which was indirectly suggested here- its a question of what their weight is comprised of and furthermore what sort of shots they throw. In the Arreola fight, Merchant repeatedly suggested that the arm-punching of Klitschko was what allowed him to get off such a high rate of shots thrown.
It's a hell of a lot more precise than 800. And I wasn't commenting as much on your "off the top your head(ness)" as much as I was your ability to throw around useless (and probably misleading) statements regarding your powers of memory. Either you really do sleep with a Klischko blanket and pillow, with walls decked in Klitschko-themed wallpaper, or you're probaby full of shit in that you just happened to ballpark a number down to the last of three digits.
Irish ain't never been down. They had to ban me just to allow other people to post their nonsense unchallenged. It's like...."whatever shit you got to get off your chest do it now before he is unbanned" Klitschko doesn't load up, and is always at the correct range, and this allows him to throw a lot of shots. If he was always getting snagged into clinches, then he would never get the shots off. But because he slides away, in an awkward sort of way, but effectively, he is already in a position to throw some more of his effortless arm shots, racking up the punches thrown. Lard arses with otherwise decent punch outputs get kidded into the clinches cos they don't move off so fast, or stop to take a breather, so their output drops. Traditional swarmers were sawn off and in great shape, but thats not always the case- they can have decent fitness and some savvy and still get a lot of shots off. Being tall and awkward helps. Solis is none of these. Tua was even worse. I know from carrying extra weight, as does anyone who has carried it, it affects your mobility. I don't know who was training Mo Harris back in the day but they said that Harris used to have a great big fat ass and until he lost it he never had any mobility ::
