The Ali who beat Cleveland Williams vs the Wlad who beat Eddie Chambers. What does this look like? I'm almost veering towards sacrilege here, but I'm open to being coaxed back to the true faith.
It may take a little while for Ali to get the timing down against such a tall opponent with a great jab but he eventually busts up and stops Wlad. Ali KO/TKO 9 I don't think he wins every round, but once he gets into a comfort zone it's a one sided affair.
Ali is the favorite about 55:45 but no more than that. Fairly quick and skillful boxer-types were able to trouble Ali, and besides those Wlad had reach and the best jab in the history to really make it difficult for Ali. I assume Ali finds a way to win but it would not be one-sided
Ali beats him by unanimous decision or late stoppage. Too much movement, too good a chin, too fast. Ali's seen height like that before (Terrell) and so it aint no thing but a chicken wing on a string from burger king....
Terrell also had more reach than Doug Jones, Karl Mildenberger and Ken Norton, all boxer-types who have nothing over Wlad and who troubled Ali
Terrel was 210 and fought out of a stoop. It's kinda like saying Casamoyer could deal with Vernon Forrest's size because he beat Diego Corrales at 130.
Ali had more problems with swarming pressure fighters than he did boxers. Wlad would give Ali a good contest but Ali's speed and right hand would carry the day, there would be no danger of Ali losing this match.
Pick em fight. Ali didn't exactly look like the master he's made out to be against Young and Norton, or Cooper for that matter, or Frazier. In fact, ooh sacrilege ooh sacrilege, Ali is probably the single most overrated fighter of all time. His one great win is over Foreman, and he got gift decisions over Norton and Young. I have absolutely nothing against Ali, and he could be very nice to watch fight, but the level of overration based mainly on adoration is quite insane. Ali is one of the best heavyweights ever, but not one of the best P4P fighters ever by a long shot, which seems to be a popular opinion. Although Wlad has lost to scrubs due to his awful chin and stamina, the current safety first version of Wlad is a very hard man to beat, and wouldn't be easy pickings for any heavyweight in history really, especially those without the KO power to have a chance of dispatching Wlad in the first couple of rounds.
One great win over Foreman? :: I always laugh when people point to Ali's fights after his forced layoff, rather than talking about the fighter at his peak as the thread clearly specifies. If you guys want to ignore the intangibles that seperates the great from the very good, that's on you. The fact is, Ali was better at everything, and Klitschko has never proven himself durable in a competitive fight.
This is another fight which sparked my 'size always matters' thread (another was Froch-Abraham, which you'll disagree with Mex, but we'll leave that aside). Look at the way Foreman crowded Ali in Zaire; how totally unable Ali was to stand his ground or create space for himself. Rope-a-dope didn't start out a deliberate choice, he just found himself there because he couldn't keep Foreman off him. Part of that was purely down to the disparity in size and strength and it's effect on their respective fear of each others physicality as they got in range. Foreman just kept coming and Ali just kept backing up. This fight comes down to how easily Ali can land on Wlad as he backs up, basically, and how much impact those shots have. Enough that he can deter Wlad from walking him down. If Ali can land lead rights at will on Wlad not only does he win, but he wins easily and by KO. I think that's the most likely outcome (lets face it, Wlad ain't Big George in the chin department), but if Wlad can come through what Ali throws as he backs up, whether through defence or chin, he walks him down and crowds him out.
If these intangibles are romanticized conceptions without basis in real world, I can't see that being such a bad thing
Heart, chin, the ability to capture the moment etc. etc. are all very real. As you know, because you follow boxing. Wlad has been in tough fights. Other than Peter (::) Wlad has never won a tough fight.
Dude, he's arguably the P4P GOAT let alone not one of the best P4P. Perhaps you've only ever watched post-Zaire Ali. The young man who beat Liston, Terrell, Foley, Williams etc was quite unbeatable. He moved like a Welterweight, had incredible reflexes and althought not proven at that time...his chin was solid as was his resolve.
Nah, now that I think about it, Eddie Chambers was just as good as Muhammad Ali, it's just that the game has left that level of fighter behind.
Hey..anything is possible on this forum. Not too long ago someone here was saying that Ali and Herbie Hide had equal skills. :giggle:
Chambers won zero rounds against Wlad so being better than him doesn't equal beating Wlad. The thing is, prime Ali outboxed pretty much everybody so there is no proof he couldn't do it here. However, Wlad has never been out boxed by anybody so by the same standards, there is no proof even Ali could do it. Since Ali is the more proven, he is the favorite, but it is up for debate for sure, and since Ali was not invincible, to give Wlad no chance at all is indeed without basis
That's cool. Skill and size wise this makes for an interesting fight. The difference between the two, and there's plenty of proof on both sides, is the fact that Ali is a proven winner vs. adversity. Wlad is a proven loser vs. adversity.
That doesn't work either. Mickey Ward was a 'proven winner' while Zab Judah is a proven loser. Things like that seldom actually decide fights.
