Bernard Hopkins vs Rocky Marciano at Cruiserweight

Does Rocky knock him out...because Rocky knocked out Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott and because he's naturally bigger than Hopkins

Does Rocky decision him because his workrate is greater?

Or Does Bernard user his height and reach advantage, cunning, smarts, ring generalship...to limit Rocky's punch output and enable himself to win a decision?

 

I pick Rocky by decision. The main factor is that Hopkins depended on having a size advantage over his opponent and he wouldn't have it here (Tarver, although same size as Marciano, was a counter-puncher and fought nothing like Rocky)

Hopkins might be able to survive full time but his problem here would be that he can not keep Marciano off since his punch wouldn't hurt Rocky enough and since Rocky had the stamina to keep pushing him full rounds. Hopkins would land some beautiful counters early and maybe even take a couple of rounds but eventually it would turn in favor of Rocky.

 

This is where I'm leaning....

 

The thing is this...

Everyone knows Bernard as the "Middleweight" and Marciano as the "heavyweight"...suggesting to our minds than Bernard would be at huge size disadvantage.

Truthfully...they are close ot the same size. Marciano, as most know, would qualify as a Cruiserweight nowadays and Bernard was always a HUGE Middleweight and is still "tight" at 175lbs.

But aside from those things...

Bernard has 3 inches in height and 8 inches in reach on Marciano.

Put it this way..Bernard is taller and rangier than Ezzard Charles!!!

Secondly..Hopkins, as y'all know, is very smart and wouldn't necessarily get drawn into a back and forth brawl with the italian the way Walcott and Charles were. Hopkins would use his legs and boxing skills and inside tricks to spoil the fight.

It's not a simple matter of Rocky would come and KO Bernard.

Hopkins has a dependable chin, superb stamina and knows how to use all of his skills to fight any fight he needs to to win.

It's going the distance...maybe Marciano gets the decision based upon agression...but I can see Hopkins winning also.

 

Marciano by KO...as soon as he get rolling.

 

yep.

 

Bernard is pretty elusive and Marciano wasn't that fast, plus short arms. Given the strength of Bernard's chin...difficult to see bernard getting KOed in this one.

 

A better reflection of real frame size is wrist and ankle circumference, tbh. Hopkins has like 6 1/4" wrists, Rocky's were about 8 1/2". Rocky boiled down to 190 odd, the scale weight alone doesn't quite tell the story of the size (& strength) disparity. Over 12 Hopkins probably survives, over 15 rounds I'd be less confident, but one way or another I think he's definitely second favourite here.

 

Ugh, Do we have to go here?

Ok, fine. Hopkins wasn't much of a puncher at 160 and would be even less of one at Cruiser. Hopkins wouldn't get an ounce of respect from Maricano and would have to run for his life just to survive. Maricano would also be a MUCH harder puncher than anyone Hopkins has ever faced, and he would hit Hopkins everywhere, including the arms, shoulders and basicilly any part of Hopkins he can get a glove on. And in the clinches, where Hopkins does a lot of his work, Marciano would be the much stronger fighter and would manhandle him. Hopkins is tricky and might last a few rounds because of it, but Maricano grinds him down and gets to him with pressure and power far beyond anything Hopkins has ever faced.

Marciano TKO 7 Hopkins

 

Yeah, that's basically how I see it too.
I must say that I'm surprised @ the picks in this one.
It seems clear to me that Bernard ain't lasting the distance.

 

Marciano would have knocked Hopkins out at some point. I cannot stress enough the disparity in class between Hopkins & Charles...& I have a very healthy respect for Hopkins, I really do. Charles wasn't the same force at Heavyweight (though he is certainly under-rated there), but either was Hopkins by the time he reached Light-Heavy.

There are issues such as styles, etc, but, to me, you can't beat Charles --- the Charles --- but lose to Hopkins. It just won't work that way. Marciano would have knocked Hopkins out.

 

His chin is not likely a match for Marciano's punch. No matter how great a man's whiskers, a 160-175lber is not going to absorb the best an all-time puncher at Heavyweight can dish out. It's one of the principle reasons weightclasses exist. Marciano's best shot puts Hopkins in orbit. Trinidad, Marciano ain't.

 

Ramonza, just a silly, off topic question (not leading to any relevant points I'm afraid): how would you compare Marciano's power to Louis'? Do you consider it in the same league?

 

Yes, I would --- but on raw terms only. When each landed clean & hard, the least they could be counted on to do would be ring their targets' bell. Many times, that was enough then & there to either neutralise the opponent, or speed them on their merry way.

The similarities really end there, though. Louis was infinitely greater with punching proficiency --- he had the shorter, more accurate punches, the greater velocity to them by an absolute mile, & better, 'crack' to his shots. He was a far greater fighter than Marciano, in my opinion. A far greater puncher in every sense of the word, too, though I do think Marciano's actual raw power stands upto Louis' well enough.

 

Louis hit harder than Marciano. No doubt in my mind.

People remember Marciano's one punch KO of Walcott.....but that came after 13 rounds of intense back and forth and it was a punch that landed as Walcott was throwing his own right hand (Lewis-McCall 1). As a rule, however, Rocky clubbed his opponents to death with heavy handed punches but not with the type of explosive tonnage that Louis frequently and consistently displayed.

 

I remember posting a thread a few year back queering the vague intuition I had that there were 'two types' of punching power, which I think I described as 'heavy handedness' and 'explosiveness' just again as vague descriptions. And I didn't just mean that some punchers are faster than others, though it was somewhat related. I felt like I was on to something as stupid as it sounded though I had no idea how to really explain it.....

A while later I was reading a training manual on increasing vertical jump by a strength coach and they were describing & explaining the phenomenon of why some people prefer to jump off one leg and some off two. And he found that it was broadly down to the fact that power in jumping is generated by two synergistic factors - strength and plyometric ability (springy recoil basically, usually aided by having long tendons but also trainable) and people are usually better at one or the other on a continuum. Strength jumpers prefer 2 legs, reactive jumpers 1.

And I think it explains what I observed in punchers. I just bring it up because Rocky & Louis seem like two good examples of guys at the opposite ends of the scale - Louis was highly explosive, and Rocky was highly strong and heavy handed. Strength jumpers need longer to prepare to get off the ground, reactive jumpers can generate their power more instantly and usually look much more graceful doing it. But both ways get you way up in the air.

Which chimes with what both Ramona and Sly said - that Louis was the more consistently devastating puncher, but give them both a free swing and it might be pretty damn close, or even be slightly in Rocky's favour.

 

I agree with this, & I've thought it for a while.
For example, Foreman has heavy, clubbing power, whereas Tyson has explosive power. I'm sure that on the heavy bag, Foreman would generate more power.
It is somewhat to do with speed, but I don't think that's the entire story.
I also think it has to do with accuracy. The explosive guys are more accurate, because their shots are more reflexive.

 

Is this over 15 rounds or 12?

 

Doesn't matter. Bernard isn't making it to either distance.

 

Why not? You've seen bernard stopped before have you? You've seen bernard get hit often with clubbing average speed punches from a short armed fighter before?

If Hopkins had been stopped before you would have a point. If Marciano had stopped a Bernard Hopkins clone..you woul dhave a point. If Hopkins was very hittable..you would have a point. But guess what...none of these things are true and so you have no point.

Just a broadwayjoe opinion based on nothing.

 

I never saw Ricardo Lopez stopped. Doesn't mean he'd survive a fight with Rafael Marquez, though. While certain raw size differences between Hopkins & Marciano aren't great, don't under-estimate the disparity between Marciano's power & that of anyone Hopkins has ever fought.

I bet, incidentally, this is a foul-replete affair, for however long it lasts.

 

Excellent reading! Even if I didn't agree --- & I do --- this is as well-presented as any post I've seen during my short time on this forum. Only thing I could think to add is that, as a result of his lightning fists & unnerving accuracy, Louis' raw power, if anything, is probably a little under-rated. Even off-balance, Louis could break men with either hand.

 

You really are the worst when it comes to separating your personal feelings from discussing boxing objectively. Hopkins is middleweight fighting a heavyweight. And not some averaging punching heavy, a heavy who can hit and has ended fights with one punch. One that applies pressure from opening bell to when the fight stops.

Using your biased "logic"...how many heavies has Hopkins absorbed punches from? That would be zero. How many big punching heavies has Hopkins absorbed punches from? That would be zero. What you are doing is taking a Middleweight, and because you really like him, and reimaging him as an effective cruiserweight...which is nothing more than a fantasy on your part.

And just because a fighter was never stopped at a lower weight, doesn't mean the same will happen at a higher weight. Michael Spinks was never beaten or stopped at Light Heavy, but then was blown away with ease by Tyson. Bob Foster was a beast at 175, but was not only stopped by Ali and Frazier, but by nearly every good heavy he fought. Wilfredo Gomez was undefeated at 122, but moved up 4 lbs to 126 and was beaten senseless by and stopped by Sanchez, who wasn't even a big puncher. Carlos Zarate was like 50-0 at bantam and moved up to 122 and was mowed down by Gomez. And there are plenty of more examples. And there are also examples of fighters who moved up and managed to win and/or last the distance. But again...to assume the lower weight fighter can't be stopped at higher weight is, as you like to say, Rubbish!!!!

To assume that because a fighter was never stopped at a lower weight means that it would also never happen at a higher weight, especially against a proven puncher is just defying logic...especially when the weight class is 30 lbs higher than where the lower weight fighter spent the majority of his career.

Like Ramonza said earlier...there are reasons for weight classes in boxing.

 

Exactly! Good post.

 

Marciano was not a heavyweight..not in terms of what we know of heavyweights today. He was 185lbs on fight night! Hopkins when he fought Tarver and Pavlik was close to 180lbs on fight night...and he still looked ripped and tight.

So there isn't this huge size disparity that you're trying to pretend. Hopkins would have had 8 inches in reach as well as 3 inches in height on rocky...and would be BY FAR the most elusive guy Marciano would have fought.

And a KO punch is no good if you can't land it.

Rocky would not KO Hopkins at all. Absolute utter nonsense.

 

Broadwayjoe..let me ask you a question.

What were your picks for Hopkins-Pavlik and Hopkins-Tarver?

I want to gauge how well you know Hopkins' abilities.

I picks Hopkins both times..many others picked Tarver by KO for reasons I see in this thread (Size and power) and others picked Pavlike by KO too but at least by decision.

 

Spoken like a big Hopkins fan...and nothing else. You are getting closer and closer to becoming the new Kid Dynamite. Endless and shameless pumping up of your favorites. ugh. And I mean ENDLESS. Much to the detriment of this forum.

 

Irrelevant and pointless question...Maricano is neither Pavlik or Tarver and Hopkins beating them provides no insight into a Marciano-Hopkins MM.

I've already given my prediction and I am not getting into one of your endless and misleading smoke screen discussions in which you attempt to reshape boxing into something that fits your opinions of fighters you like. I know you won't be happy until you at least TRY to browbeat everyone into accepting your biased opinion, but it gets really old after a while.

As you were...

 

What were your predictions in those fights? I'm curious...

 

Nice try, but you are not sucking me into one of your smoke screen discussions.

I've already given my prediction for this topic the and reasons for it. I'm not wasting my time discussing irrelevant fights and enabling your habit of going on endlessly about things.

But you don't need me....I'm sure you can make an attempt to make Hopkins into a Superman all by yourself.

And you know what...I am a Hopkins fan, too...I just look at him realistically.