I can't for the life of me see a balding drunk Pacquiao quit against Buchanan so Pac is greater by default
I wouldn't bet on that. I've seen legions of Filipino's try their luck with a drunk Scotsman and none were victorious.
Pac is definitely greater. I dunno if Pac is better, but I do know i would pick Ortiz to beat him at 135. Carlos had every tool needed to beat Pac.
I don't see this as particularly close. Ortiz might beat him, but even then, it doesn't makes him better since Ortiz was bigger, and i don't think he'd have as much success against the bigger guy pac fought
Pacquiao and Ortiz are almost exactly the same size. Ortiz was a big lightweight in the same day era, Pac was a junior welterweight in the day before era. If anything Pacquiao's bigger, weight wise.
Looking at Pac's victims, Ortiz would have success against them. Ortiz would carve up Hatton, and would beat Cotto at 140. Also, a shot and dehydrated DLH would lose badly to Ortiz. People need to stop hiding from the elephant in the room - Pac transitioned so well at higher weights with help. If Ortiz had access to that same "help", no telling what he could have done. These debates are like saying that Babe Ruth had inferior power to Barry Bonds. Yeeaaaaaa, I wonder why.
We should have the same rules for everyone though. Manny was never caught juicing, even though he obviously did it. Holyfield was caught but it is never used against him. Most of the best fighters of the 80s probably were on the juice too, as roids were common knowledge already, but that never gets mentioned. Tyson even got busted after the first Ruddock fight, and not for marijuana, but that is never considered either
Juicing is constantly brought up in both Tyson, and Holy topics. And Jones topics. If anything, it only adds to the greatness of a fighter like Ortiz, who accomplished what he did without 80s-00s juice as an enhancer.
He fought non juiced fighters though. I don't believe all of these 80s-00s superstars were the only ones juicing, I'm confident a lot of their high profile foes did too...
Juice has clearly evolved over the years, too. Why else can Manny look like a young man at 40, and Leonard was shot by his mid 30s? I mean, it's PARTIALLY because Manny lives a clean life, while Leonard was boozing and coking between fights, but it's also due to enhanced roids.
Holyfield's status as the greatest cruiser, or as a top-10 heavyweight, or as a better fighter than any 2000s heavyweight, is never questioned because of roids. Furthermore Bsron makes a good point. Manny might have better juice than the guys of the 80s, but he is also facing fighter's who possibly are on the same drugs as he is. In the end it evens out
Exactly, the only reason it could be used against Manny a little bit more than others is that weight gain is easier when on PED (so makes his astonishing run across weight class a little less spectacular). Otherwise, it's fucking retarded to think Manny was the only one juicing (hint: they all where).
Regarding who is better is an interesting question. Ortiz was a crafty, strong, full of guile and intelligence, and also one of the most physically adept classic ATG lightweights. He knew exactly how, and when, to fight 3 minutes of a round or slow the pace to a crawl, and he was awesome at reading a fighter and dominating the centre. Of course, his technical skills were also excellent (better than Pac's, for the comparison). I'd say for his ruleset / era context, at the specific weight of 135lbs, he was close to being unbeatable at his best. Pac was just a phenom, a physical beast with all attributes ramped to 100. He had great instincts and heart, and could switch a difficult situation into a KO in the blink of an eye. However, as a pure 135lber I'd have to say he is below Ortiz in effectiveness. However, as an actual p4p fighter (i.e regardless of weight) Pac is much more effective, in my personal opinion, as his attributes make him one of the rare few who deals better with bigger men, stylistically, than those of the same size (similar to guys like Walker or Wilde). Ortiz was more proven at 135, but it is hard to envision him storming 147 and even beating a nigh on middleweight the way Pac has.
