Boxing Crossroads

"Crossroad fight" is a term used in boxing way too much. Every fight can amount to something similar to this. When I look at boxing right now, I see the sport at that proverbial intersection. Left leads to certain doom. Right to the promised land. This isn't a thread about "oh how can we save boxing?!?!", it's simply an observation.

I think we can almost FINALLY say that guys like Hopkins, De La Hoya, Jones Jr, Holyfield, Mosley, Barrera, Morales, Vargas, Wright, Castillo and now Mayweather, have their best ays behind them and within a couple of years, all of these guys will be gone from the sport and with them the link to the 1990's.

This gives the next crop a great opportunity to supplant themselves as the new era and faces of a still proud sport. Fights like Cotto, Pavlik, Pacquiao, Hatton and (yes) Klitschko are all established stars of varying degrees but who will step out from the pack and become the next "Golden Boy"? There's one in every generation and rarely more.

Ali ---> Leonard ---> Tyson ---> De La Hoya ---> ?????

Is he active already? Is he an ammateur? Is he even born? Will he ever arrive? Who's it going to be and where will he come from?

 

Haye
Pavlik
Cotto

These are the guys with the skills and the personality to be 'the next big thing'...

 

Do you think they can be Oscar or Leonard? I sure don't. Arrogance without runs on the board and competition haven't been enough to get the guys close to the cusp over the line and into that category.

Jones Jr and Mayweather Both fell short. Trinidad didn't have the personality and thats where I think Cotto fails.

Pavlik could be the guy, but I can't ever see Haye or Cotto being him.

 

I really don't see it with Haye.

Cotto is an interesting case, because he's not an English-first speaker and he's not American. That probably caps his cross-over ability.

Pavlik can cross-over to some degree but I don't think he has the ability of some of the others...and I don't think he'll be all that successful moving up in weight. If he can stay at middleweight for a long time, he might have a chance...but he won't get near DLH or Leonard, IMO.

I really think Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. has the biggest star potential of any fighter on the horizon. He has the name, the Mexican/Mexican American support, and he has looks. He also has some skill and Arum will protect him and he'll be a huge money-maker and so boxing die-hards will resent him but I think he'll do very well.

Daniel Jacobs is a fighter I'd keep my eye on. I think he has star potential.

The '08 Olympic class will be important to watch. If it ends up like the '04 class, boxing is in trouble.

 

I don't agree with Chavez, even though I do well see the points you're making. 'The guy' in boxing has always been a great fighter already. He's just had the perfect combination of everything else, as well. Chavez Jr isn't going to be a great fighter, IMO, even if I am a fan of the kid and he's improving all the time.

Even his dad was never on the level of Oscar, Leonard or Tyson. He was second fiddle throughout. When Mike left, attention moved around between a lot of divisions and Chavez was one of those guys, but never 'the' guy. Eventualy Oscar popped up and the rest is history.

I agree completely on the importance of this olympic class. It's vital success is bred from it somewhere.

 

Haye has a shot, IMHO, because he is now moving into the HW division. Despite the proliferation of titles, that division still carries a lot of romance and mystique about it, and boxing desperately needs a HW champion who is not only good in the ring but also has some personality. Wlad is an intelligent and articulate enough guy but he is as dull as dishwater and barely recognisable to the non-boxing public. Nobody outside boxing would be able to name a single other active HW. The division is crying out for someone, anyone, to take it by the scruff of the neck and illuminate it again. That guy MIGHT be Haye, but who knows?

Cotto has a fighting style which makes him attractive to watch and the skills to back it up. Beating Floyd would put him into the 'megastar' category, though that now seems unlikely as Floyd has again retired, but agreed that the main hindrance to his chances of becoming the next cross-over star is his apparent lack of English.

That leaves Pavlik, and he is the most likely out of those I listed for a number of reasons. If he stays at MW, there isn't a hell of a lot out there likely to beat him at the minute, which means he is likely to have the spotlight for some time. His style of fighting is very fan friendly and he is fighting at a weight which the general public recognises and, as with HW, has a degree of mystique to it still. Moreover, he comes across as a very personable, likable and humble guy and you can see that HBO really want to push the 'every man' angle- much like the British did with Ricky Hatton.

Agreed with Mitchell on the importance of the 08 Olympic class. I'm especially keen to see how the British contingent fare, considering that we have taken three boxers in total to 00 + 04 combined, and this time there is almost a dozen, with some real quality like Gavin in the mix. It's very possible that the next big thing is something we haven't really seen yet or something which uses the Olympics as his springboard to glory.

MTF

 

Well, I understand what you're saying about Chavez Jr. not matching up to predecessors in boxing ability. But in terms of being a star and a name I don't see many that will even come close to him.

I think he has the best potential of being the next "it" guy in boxing along the lines of DLH and Leonard...and I do think we'll eventually see DLH-JCC Jr. down the road (if Chavez Jr. doesn't stumble getting there).

Most boxers build their names out of the amateur system, but he didn't have to. He turned pro already a star in a Mexico.

He's only 22 years old and he's already 36-0-1. He'll be closing in on 50 pro fights pretty soon.

The one thing I will say is it's no surprise that Cotto, Pavlik and Chavez are all promoted by Bob Arum/Top Rank.

 

Regarding the first point, I tend to look at Haye as more of the fighter that can make Klitschko a bigger name.

Haye talks a great game - sorta like Rahman did with Lewis - and he has an exciting puncher's style. If Klitschko can pass his mandatories this year and Haye can beat one or two name heavyweights, as he says the plan is, then I think Klitschko-Haye would be a good fight a marketable fight.

The question is whether there'd be an audience for it in the States...but if Haye can bring fans en masse to the U.S. like some other British fighters (like Bruno, Hatton, et al) then it might be a big event.

Thompson is anything but marketable, and Povetkin could possibly be built into something more but his camp want the fight this year and I think they're picking that fight before it's ready.

 

he also has the personality of a brick wall.

 

Then maybe it helps that he doesnt speak much English. ::

 

True, at least this way he has an aura of mystique about him.

 

I think Pacquiao and Haye have good opportunities to do it based on their skill and popularity already. Ricky Hatton had a good chance but I think his skill level isn't up to the point where he can get over the cusp.

 

Trinidad was fairly close, but what prevented him from getting to the top was 1)Not learning english, 2)Not winning the middleweight tournament.

Also, there could be an argument that Jones Jr. did make it. He has lots of cross-over appeal that manifested itself in plenty of other areas.

 

Roy never made it to the popularity level of Leonard, or DLH. Even though he was a considerably better fighter than Oscar.

He was a star though. He certainly had more popularity towards the public than Floyd, and did so without needing DLH.

Prior to fighting Oscar, Floyd was nowhere NEAR as popular, or as big a star as Roy.

 

Roy didn't have that Gold Medal, which might have hurt him, but he is one of the fighters that non-boxing fans can recognize by name. It's also hard to compare him to someone like Leonard because Leonard was around in a time when boxing was at the forefront of sports, not in the background like it is now.

 

Other than Tyson, the guys Tam named won the Olympics in front of basically every home with a TV in America. Olympic boxing is no longer one of the major events like it used to be, and that hurts. No one really watched Andre Ward win gold, no one knows who he is. It's no longer in prime time spots, or on the most watched channels.

Tyson didn't need that as much because he was a freak puncher and character in a division that people still cared about.

 

Exactly.

If Mike Tyson wasn't great at knocking people the f*ck out, he wouldn't have gotten the exposure because he wasn't a hyped Olympian like those other guys.

Still even today, guys who can KO people without folding under pressure (i.e Pacquiao) can become extremely popular.

 

It took Canadian Pandy to finally mention it; the Olympic's is where these guys all made their name and why it was so influential. I don't think the opportunity to make it that way is there anymore, for boxers. Certainly not like it used to be.

Mike is probably the key to future success, because he managed to become the star without the help of a gold medal....and this is why people bitch and moan about the heavyweights. We don't need another Tyson; boxing does. It wasn't an issue with Lewis, Evander and Bowe, because Tyson was still a peripheral character and Oscar was always around. Thats about to change real soon.

 

The Haye- Maccaranelli fight was HUGE in the UK, mainly because of Enzo. He had a hell of a lot of exposure on Calzaghe under-cards, and the vast majority of people I know picked Enzo to win, simply because they saw him knock a lot of tomato cans over.

If Haye can carry his power to the HW division over a fight or two, then UK fans will flock to the states to see him fight Wlad if he scores a few good wins first. Of that I'm sure.

Agreed with Alabama on Hatton by the way. In the UK at least, Hatton is HUGE- bigger than Lewis, Calzaghe, Haye, Bruno and even perhaps Benn and Eubanks. If he'd have beaten Floyd, he might just have been it. He just wasn't quite good enough.

MTF

 

I say again, the possible answer is David Haye.

Let me be frank here- I don't think he is half as good as he thinks he is. He is chinny as fuck and if his chin gets tapped, he will fall. But by God he will make noise, and if he falls, he will fall throwing shots and telling the world about how he will be throwing shots.

The Heavyweight division is the greatest division in boxing, and it is dying on it's arse. It is DESPERATE for someone, anyone, to come in and grab it by it's tails and take a shot. Haye, even if he dies a death, will at least try and KTFO of anyone and everyone on his way to either death or glory.

That is why people like myself cannot wait for him to try- fail or succeed, he brings an excitement that has been lost since Lennox, Mike and Evander stopped mattering anymore. And power to him for it.

MTF

 

There has never been a modern British star that was capable of carrying the sport. David Haye doesn't have the makings of being the first.

 

Why not?

Lennox Lewis had the tools but he had the personality of an egg plant. Nigel Benn and Chris Eubanks always lived in the shadow of RJJ. Frank Bruno was plain average.

Joe Calzaghe has the goods but has left it too late and is too Welsh. I mean that seriously. He has the persona of a man who gives not a flying fuck about anyone bar Joe and Enzo Calzaghe. Watch the Haye-Mac fight again and see Joe trying to egg Mac to beat the count that did for him- the look on his face (of pure contempt) as Enzo failed is priceless.

Hatton was as close as they come, but he is the best in a weak division and on the biggest night, when all was spread before him, he fell short. No shame in losing to the best, but he had his shot and wasn't quite good enough.

Haye is in a great position to try. He is now fighting in THE division- the Heavyweight division. That is the ONE division in boxing where casual boxing fans still will turn in to see what is what. And the division is piss weak- Wlad aside, not a single other active HW would have lasted eight rounds with Holy/Lewis/Tyson/Bowe as little as a decade ago.

Moreover, the man is articulate, confident, exciting to watch and full of himself. He will divide opinion- people will tune in to either watch him win or to see him KTFO. You wait and see, Tam.

Not that I wanna burst any bubbles, but Oscar isn't THAT well known over here, either. I'm not saying he isn't a cross-over star, but the UK has it's own boxing bubble. Thats why so many travel to watch our lot fight, and if you aint on TV here, you aint shit. Hell, Amir Khan is the NEXT BIG THING in the UK, and you and I know he wouldn't last six rounds against half a dozen lightweights you care to name.

Again, I'm not saying Haye IS gonna be it. But he has a shot, of that I have no doubt...

MTF

 

Lewis didn't have the tools. His style made him unpopular. His personality made him unpopular. The fact that he was British (or Canadian, or Jamaican) made him unpopular. Thats the same problem Ricky Hatton has. He gets cheers, but gets as many boo's from the US side of the pond. Why? Because he's British.

European fighters cannot carry the candle for the entire sport. Not unless the power shifts somewhere along the line and the USA is no longer the foundation for the boxing bloodstream.

Never going to happen.

 

Bull.

Floyd was American and he never even came close to crossing-over. Roy Jones was the best fighter of his generation, and he didn't either. Oscar isn't American, last I checked.

The Heavyweight Champion of the World ALWAYS carries the candle. It is only in this generation of HW's that have failed to do so, because they are such monotonous pap. If Haye, an English speaking, fast talking, aggressive fighting and hard punching fighter takes the HW title, he is in the best position to cross over.

For fucks sake- that's why he's doing what he's doing. He could stay at CW and make a shitload of cash on UK sales alone, but he KNOWS the cherry is ripe.

To say he has no chance is, with respect, foolish.

MTF

 

Jones certainly came close at one point, but not close enough. And HE was a heavyweight champion. If that didn't do it for Jones, what makes you think a far lesser (known and as a fighter) David Haye, from Britain, can?

ANd Oscar isn't American? :laughing::laughing: Yeah, right.

The heavyweight champion doesn't always hold that candle. Thats the fucking problem here. Lewis didn't. Holyfield didn't. Wlad certainly doesn't. They were never THE MAN across the world. For you to say that Oscar isn't goes against what statistics prove he is.

And no, Haye has no chance under the current environment within boxing. You can call it whatever you wish.

 

Because Roy fought like Floyd fights- off the back foot, all reflexes and counter punching. Great for the boxing enthusiast, but for the casual boxing fan, a pile of boring crap.

Haye is the stock opposite. He can't fight off the back foot- he has to go forward and throw hurtful shots or he is fucked. That alone appeals to the casual fan. that is what makes huys like Hatton, Pavlik, Manny et al such box office, even if, in some cases, the quality is off a far lesser standard to, say, a Roy or a Floyd.

Haye is certainly less of a fighter than Roy was, but he says he's gonna KO people and he MEANS it. Roy would say he was gonna KO people and then he dominated them without risking shit. No disrespect to Roy- he clowned a lot of guys over a lot of years, but if you say you are gonna KO people, you have to go out and (and least try) to do it. Haye will. He backs up all of his noise with his style. That is the difference.

Lewis may not have held the candle, but at least he was universally recognised as THE man. People knew him and knew what he was. Most people couldn't name the present HW champ if you gave them a shortlist of one. BUT, that candle is still waiting to be lit. If you had to pick any division to insert any random, charismatic, exciting, fan friendly, articulate fighter into to relight the boxing flame, it woul have to be the HW division. That is Haye's advantage, and I say again, he well knows it. Haye is HUGE in the UK right now, and could make millions fighting CW scrubs on Setanta, but he sees the HW division as it is- piss weak and devoid of personality.

Seriously- how many threads has Haye been responsible for on this board without even fighting a HW beyond the bum formerly known as Bonin?

I'm not saying that he will be the one. It all depends if he can back up his words with his fists. But IF he does, sparks will fly and you will see where I am coming from, Tam. Mark my words.

MTF

 

Leonard and Ali fought off the back foot. Not good enough, bro. Either delete it, take it back...appologise, or I won't get a chance to read the rest of your post. :nono:

 

Different eras, different audiences and different beasts.

Ali fought when the HW title was the ONLY thing in boxing that mattered. He could have thrown a single shot a round and still transcend the sport as he did through his rhetoric (before you even consider his politics/religion and how, as Vietnam soured, he went from Zero to Hero) and the fact that TV was only just really being rolled out when he was starting out. Ali and TV had a great relationship- they sort of matured together.

Plus, Ali's braggart nature MADE people follow his fights. Some wanted him to lose. Some wanted him to win. Everyone had an opinion, and everyone watched regardless.

His style didn't count for shit. Ali was Ali.

Nowadays, of course, people are spoiled for choice. If you REALLY wanted, you could buy SKY TV and watch boxing 24/7 (live fights, re-runs etc). Style counts for a lot more now. When the market can pick and choose, the market picks excitement.

I'll say this now. If Roy had been around in 1960, when boxing to the masses was confined only to the very best, he WOULD have become the sort of crossover start of the like you describe. Because of his braggart nature and his success, he would have been the only guy broadcast. But by the 1990's, the viewer chooses. And given a choice between, say, Roy schooling someone off the backfoot or Benn and McClellan near killing one another, who are people gonna watch. Not BOXING people, but the mainstream?

That's why style matters NOW. More than it ever has...

MTF

 

I don't know about Holyfield. From the time of the first Tyson fight until the first Lewis fight, he was arguably the biggest star in the sport.

 

He was, you're probably right, but even still he made his name off of the superstar; Tyson. Evander was in the twilight of his career at that point and was basically the sacraficial lamb for Tyson. Up until that point Evander was a popular fighter, but not as heavyweight champions go. He was always considered a guy who would lose his next fight.

Thats the problem with right now. There is no remaining superstar to help create the next one, via this way.