It's been said that Clay wasn't as durable in '64 as he was in the early 70s..many say that in '64 he still hadn't fully developed as a man. Muhammad Ali himself has said that he wasn't as tough then (take that with a "pinch"/"Grain" of salt though). So how does the young brash Clay deal with the bigger, taller and stronger version of Liston, as was the young George Foreman? How does he deal with this all out aggressive monster that knows how to cut off the ring?
Hmmm..... really don't know on this one. I can't see the younger Ali having the confidence to see the rope-a-dope strategy through. And I'm not sure how him trying to box at range, even with the greater speed he had at that time would work out.
Considering how easily older Ali actually avoided Foreman's punches and outlanded him (Ali won five out of the seven complete rounds), I do believe the prime version wins too. Foreman was tailor-made for Clay, though of course it must be remembered that against Chuvalo Clay did not look as unbeatable
Foreman's ability to cut off the ring and impose his size is hardly 'tailor made' for Clay. Old Ali had more mental strength and resourcefulness I believe and he had to basically invent a unique in boxing history strategy to deal with what Foreman brought in relation to his own natural style. It's really not as simple as saying 'young Ali was prime & faster he'd do the same easier'.
I'd be more confident if we were talking about the Ali of, say, 66-67. Even in late-65, Ali had the priceless experience of his battles with Liston & Patterson in-hand...but in 64, he had looked ordinary on more than a few occasions, as countenance to his surprise stoppage of an ageing (but feared) Liston. A prime, & properly-motivated, conditioned Foreman gets my vote over a somewhat inactive & possibly underdone Liston, & I think Foreman's nous for ring-cutting was better than Liston's, even though his general skill-set was inferior. It's a tall order for Foreman to find Ali, but not the impossible task it is sometimes painted as. Inferior, smaller fighters did it, & I'm not just talking about those who dropped him (Banks & Cooper). I won't predict a Foreman win outright, but honestly, were I a gambling man, I would definitely be taking the long odds on him...
I think that the Clay of '64 wasn't as tough as he became in '65 and '66 as my dear colleague Ramonza alluded to, but it wouldn't matter. Clay was as elusive as a ghost on his best nights...and he'd be UP for this fight and perceive the threat in front of him. As such he'd frustrate Foreman with movement and handspeed and when George would occasionally trap him in the corner or against the ropes....he'll find a way to deal with that (whisper in his ear after tying him up or whatever). Clay by mid to late stoppage.
This MM really needs no answer. If George couldnt beat an old man Ali, then theres no reason to believe he has a chance with a peak Ali. Its the Liston fight all over again.
Not unreasonable. I would probably favour this outcome in fact, but if MM's could be made, I know Foreman would be 100-1. He's worth a gamble. Foreman had more to his game than simply heavy hands, & Ali could be hurt in 1964 in a way he could not in 1974.
It is not that simple I agree, but considering that the old Ali saw every punch Foreman threw, while standing on the ropes, then I have very difficult time to see Foreman catching a young version properly, even if he could force Clay to the ropes at times
It'd be an interesting one. I don't believe Ali could dance his way to victory, Foreman was the greatest 'ring cutter' the sport's ever seen and not even young Ali's quicker feet are going to grant him the space needed to work that strategy. If he wins without rope-a-doping it's by pot shotting and clinching/smothering like he did in the first. The problem with that being - observe the two of them after that round ; Ali is already blowing hard and looking scared, Foreman looks nonchalant since that's the fight he was expecting and it was going to just to plan. I'm not sure a man could maintain the energy it would take to win with that strategy over a long fight. It took a huge expenditure of energy & concentration.
Man, people really underrate just how sickeningly fast Ali was as a young man and how GOOD he was... I don't see Foreman catching him AT ALL
Who did Foreman ever cut the ring off on who had a fraction of a prime Ali's ability? I'll wait. 64 Ali kicks Foreman's slow ass all over the ring.
How about the 74 version of the very same man? i think if anyone's abilities can be expressed as a neat fraction of a 22 year Ali's it's the same man as a 32 year old. I'd plump for somewhere in the region of four fifths. And Ali couldn't get an inch to breath. Watch the first 4 minutes or so of that fight before Ali resigns himself to having to fight off the ropes. Not an inch. Maybe 64' Ali could find an inch but Foreman is still gonna be all over him & dancing is gonna be a shitty strategy.
The 74 Ali had none of the talents that the 60's Ali had. What he had was amazing toughness, and intelligence. Foreman rushing the 64 Ali just opens him up for Ali's handspeed, and counters. If ANYBODY has a chance at cutting off the ring, and giving alot of trouble to the 60's Ali, its the 80's Tyson. Foreman simply doesnt have the speed, or defense to compete with a prime Ali.
I disagree. Foreman cut ali off easily (and he's much better at crowding a man than Tyson). If the younger version is 10% faster of foot he still isn't gonna get away and he is still gonna have to deal with solving that problem. Not saying Foreman wins, just saying he poses unique challenges for Ali of any age; and that the younger Ali is less likely to improvise unique solutions.
