While I was watching Teddy Atlas ramble on tonight about the Cotto-Clottey fight (he scored it a perplexing 114-114), it made me start thinking about the upcoming Pac-Cotto fight. Specifically, I am really wondering if Cotto didn't sustain permanent damage in the Margarito fight, possibly both physically and mentally. Even if there were no lasting physical damages, I think almost for sure there is a mental aspect which has made Cotto a different, and actually inferior fighter. I started a thread once where I ranted about how truly shitty what Margarito did to Cotto was, and even now I can see that there really aren't words to properly describe it. I think plaster-head Margarito may, just may, be responsible for setting in motion the destruction of Miguel Cotto's career and legacy. I think the damage done is having far-reaching effects on a fighter who may have done some spectacular things, and who now may instead shortly fade into obscurity. Which brings me to what is so compelling about a Cotto-Pac matchup. It is kind of like the ultimate crossroads fight, in that Cotto *must* win, and win decisively, in order to truly redeem himself and reinvigorate his career. His performances of late open up a lot of questions, and if he were to lose to Pac I think he's pretty much DONE and should retire. Not because he could not still fight and win, but because it would put the final exclamation point on the fact that Cotto can no longer fight and win agains the BEST. And at this point in Cotto's career, what is the point of finishing up his career fighting 8 or 9 more fights against B or B+ fighters? Money I suppose... but I can't see Cotto being content like that, getting beat up trying to work his way back up to a title shot he would probably lose. For Pac, I think if he beats Cotto, particularly if he does so decisively, you'd have to say that this was the fight that elevated him from an already pretty solid top 10 great at the lighter weights to perhaps one of the greatest fighters to ever lace 'em up. I mean, from 106 to welter, fighting piles of GREAT and even legendary fighters, and beating most of them by pounding the shit out of them? And to imagine him beating a true welterweight champion, someone significantly bigger, in or at least very near to their prime, who is a legit threat to just about any welter in the world? This isn't Moneyweather moving around carefully fighting the least dangerous guys possible to win potshot "titles" here and there... this is a throwback who doesn't want to fight anyone but the best. If he beats Cotto clearly, especially if by KO, you can legitimately say that he is probably the best fighter in the world in every single weight from 126 to 147, which sounds almost absurd. For both fighters, this fight is of monumental importance. I think if Cotto loses, he's done, and if Pac loses it puts AAAALLLLLLL his "great" higher weight victories against DLH, Hatton, David Diaz, and back to JMM, even Barrera in at least a slightly different light. People will be much more likely to say DLH was truly shot, Hatton was also way on the downslide (and was never all that to begin with), and people will also look at the close wins with JMM and wonder who is really the better fighter.. especially if JMM were to beat or draw with Floyd. But if Pac beats Cotto... it summarily answers and erases all those questions in one fell swoop. Of course I'd rather see Pac/Floyd, but that may never happen through no fault of Manny's, and as such I am not sure if that would really make a dent in the perception of his career years from now. I can't wait to see this fight.
Cotto is what I always said he was. He is a good fighter but not elite and he never was. He was managed very well. I thought he lucked out with Shane which I had a draw. Most people never scored it. Cotto was so overhyped. Now people are starting to see the truth. Good fighter, not great, and a level below elite. Mayweather Williams Pacman I think they'd all dominate him, Pacman being the fight he has the best chance of winning, about A 15% chance. He has a 2% chance versus the other two.
I see a pre-Margacheato Cotto giving a 12 round beating to Fraud, outpointing Williams and stopping Pacquiao. But this post-Margacheato Cotto is damaged goods and your prediction can be accurate.
This may be true. But I am not yet convinced. That is one of the reasons I started this thread, I truly think that Cotto-Pac will be truth serum for both fighters. I am perhaps foolishly clinging on to what I saw in Cotto before the Marg fight - the way he used to fight, the things he used to do with ease, and he was still getting better. Anyway, if (as most expect) Cotto gets blitzed by Pac, then I think that not only is it fair to say Williams or Mayweather would beat him, too, but that (as I said above) Cotto is done. Done at the championship level, and possibly even done against up-and-comers and prospects who can punch or pressure fight. They will sense his weakness and run right through him. However, if Cotto indeed gets a new, competent trainer, and tries to patch the holes in his game, then I need to see him once more before I write him off. If he gets back to form and beats Pac clearly, then I may again tip towards him being possibly the best at 147 and would like to see him go for Floyd or Paul Williams. For Pac a loss would be very tarnishing. You just wouldn't expect p4p#1 to lose to someone like Cotto at this point in his career. A clear decision win or KO win is enough to propel him to g.o.a.t. status. And for the record, a one year ban for fighters who load their gloves with plaster and risk killing other fighters or terminating their careers is fucking insane. After Cotto loses to Pac he can very soon watch Marg fight again from the waiting room at his neurosurgeon's office.
Well, fine, but Teddy is still a flaky attention whore who tries to garner accolades by coming up with goofy scores & outlandish predictions. In this case his whimsical, even-round-laden scoring may have fallen in line with other serious scorecards by pure luck. If I am not mistaken this week he picked Chagaev to beat Wlad Klitchko.
I agree. Some people can never be satisfied it seems. If you get guys like Lampley and crew who dick ride and are agenda driven, people complain. You can also get Atlas who speaks his mind, thinks for himself and often really knows what he's talking about, and people still complain. Yeah, Atlas may have a huge ego and may even say stupid shit at times but you have to take the good with the bad from a guy like him. I thought what he said about Clottey trying to get bailed out by the ref was spot on and something I had forgotten about until he brought it up again. I read on another site where a poster said Cotto should rematch Margarito. I think that is a great idea. I'd hate to give Margarito such a gift but I think letting Cotto whip a plasterless Margarito would probably help him put the loss behind him. Honestly maybe Cotto doesn't need the Pacquiao fight right now if he wants to come all the way back from the Margarito loss.
:notallthere: Cotto doesn't beat Floyd or Williams, never. He has a good shot vs Pacquiao but I'm not so sure there either. He'll take more left hands than cocktails when he parties.
Is it possible Cotto was never as good as everyone thought? I mean, he barely beat Mosley. He barely beat Clottey. He hasn't exactly set the world on fire since moving to 147. And at 140 he seemed very vulnerable, having been seriously hurt by both Torres and Corely, and having fought tooth and nail to win a decision against N'dou. He always had a pretty style and could definitely punch, but I can't recall his every dominating anyone who would be considered a top five calibur fighter. Can you? I was impressed early on with his wins over Pinto and Abdullaev, but neither of those guys turned out to be any good. Pretty much, he has one victory to hang his hat on and it was close if not controversial and that's his win over a very past his prime Mosley. I'm not saying Margarito's felonious assault on him may not have taken something out of him for good - it's definitely possible. We all know Vargas was never the same after the Trinidad fight. But I struggle to find evidence that he was as great as people thought he was even prior to the Margarito fight. I wasn't surprised at all to see him lose to Margarito, and I can't imagine his beating P-will. And I think PBF would easily win a boring decision over him. And it's difficult to imagine his dealing with Pacquiao's speed and angles, given his style of always being set when he punches, and his tendency to square up. I guess it's only fair to include his win over Quintana as being a good one. Forgot about that one.
That's a good point. Mosley put him through hell and to be honest he hasn't been the same since. He came in the Margarito fight not sitting down on his punches and constantly moving. He is Puerto Rican, maybe he got "Camacho'ed" by Mosley.
This is the most hilarious thing I've ever read. His approach against Margarito was due to his fight with Mosley? I mean Margarito commited felonious assault as far as I'm concerned and should never be allowed to box again. But let's be real here. Cotto's hit and move style that he employed against Margarito was due to Mosley? Don't you think it's more likely that it had to do with Margarito? And the fact that everytime Cotto tried to trade with him he was being hit with plaster? This is insane. Next you're going to say that that wasn't actually Margarito in the ring that night. It was Mosley on stilts with a disguise on. Yeah. Yeah. Mosley's great. He's fought everybody and never been dominated. And after all he's been through, yet again, he finds himself at the top of his division. But let's be realistic here. Cotto moved all night because? a. He was psychologically altered by his experience against Mosley - a fighter he defeated who fights nothing like Margarito b. He was in against a tall and rangy fighter who never stopped throwing punches and who had plaster in his gloves You honestly think the answer is a? Cotto showed a lot of movement in fights as early as his days at 140. N'dou nearly chased him out of the ring. And fought off the back of his foot briefly against Torres as well. Cotto gets wobbled multiple times by Torres, chased out of the ring by N'dou, and loses his legs against Corley, but fights on undiscouraged. But he fights Mosley and suddenly he's a gun-shy cutie in there? Gimme a break.
See, this is why you can't be a fan of a fighter and discuss him without people thinking you're nut hugging everytime you discuss him. Where did you see me say I think Shane did all that? Reread my post, I merely stated it as a possible theory that could have happened against any fighter Cotto fought but it happened to be against Shane. Yet you ran off thinking I'm just trying to nuthug Mosley. To be honest even though I was half joking when I wrote that post, it's a sound theory, but not one I intend to argue for. However if I did want to argue for it a few points I would make are Margarito's so called plaster was said to not harden until later in the fight, Cotto was on the move from rd 1. It also hasn't been proven that Margarito used plaster against Cotto no matter how much you or I believe he did.
Thats bullshit. Mosley didn't do that much to Cotto in that fight and spent the first 2/3's of it looking to hide. Cotto ran for the final 1/3 of a fight he was way in front of. He was never going to be able to stand with Margarito. He did the same thing with ABdullaev and N'Dou as well.
I didnt see him run with abdullaev. Especially when abdu was on the canvas and his head looked like a swollen vagina, while quitting the fight.
Why? He impressively destroyed Gomez with body-shots. And was aggressive the entire fight. What is your point?
:: As much as I'd love to bang my head against the wall with you for a few days on this subject, I think I'm gonna sit this one out.
Seriously. I don't understand your point. It sounds like you're trying to imply that Cotto's performance against Gomez was compromised by his fight with Mosley? Is that what you're saying? And never mind Mosley, Cotto looked fine to me against Jennings as well, which suggests that even the Margarito beating hasn't dealt him permanent damage. I just think Clottey is a good fighter who despite appearing unable to beat the very best fighters, always manages to make them look bad. I also entertain the possibility that Cotto was never as good as people thought he was in the first place. Seriously. What is your point regarding the Gomez fight? Cotto handled him easily.
I didn't say Cotto was (physically) compromised by Mosley. I'm saying that fight changed the way he fights. He tried to stay in with Mosley and go toe-to-toe, but somewhere in that fight, Mosley convinced him he couldn't do it for a twelve rounds. And Cotto hasn't fought the same way since.
Uh, Cotto has often reverted to "boxing" when he can't get his opponent out of there in the first 5-7 rounds. He did it against N'dou. He did it against Mosley. And he did it against Abdullaev. He basically does it when he's fatigued and in there with a guy he's not considerably stronger than. If anything, I would point to the Torres fight as a turning point in his style. I think it was in that fight he realized he can't just go ape-shit on every opponent without being vulnerable.
So he started the Gomez and Margarito fights fatigued. And he spent almost the entire ninth round "on the move" and in reverse...but I guess the fight was already won by then.
So Mosley changed Cotto's entire approach to boxing? After 20+ years of developing and honing his style? Is that what you're claiming? Wow. You must think the world of Mosley. Gomez was a sucker for counter-punches. Margarito was hitting him with plaster and he couldn't trade with him as a result of that plus Margarito's superior reach and work-rate. It had nothing to do with the Mosley fight. And Cotto was not ruined by the Mosley fight. Neither was he a changed fighter following it, except to the extent he gained valuable experience that could only have helped him in subsequent fights. It had no psychological impact on his approach to prize-fighting and the idea that it did is idiotic.
If I call it experience it has nothing to do with your implication or anyone else's for that matter that Cotto was Camachofied by Mosley. That would mean Cotto now fights like a pussy which we clearly know is not true. This was especially apparent in his latest fight in which he gutted out a victory despite blood flowing down his face like he was a gutted fish.
When did I ever mention Hector Camacho? You can use whatever language helps you avoid what I'm addressing.
Cotto's style has not changed materially since the Mosley fight. That is my opinion. That is the position I'm defending. It might not have been you who mentioned Camacho, but one poster did draw a parallell between Cotto's fight with Mosley and Camacho's fight with Rosario, as if to suggest that he's been forever spooked by the fight. I think that is a complete fabrication of what occurred. If anything, Cotto's victory over Mosley improved his confidence.
