Charles beats him... he did everything as well and did certian things far better... Charles is one of the ten greatest fighters who ever breathed, in my opinion... it would be a TALL ORDER to beat him at 175 on his best day
I'd bet on Tunney at Light-Heavy (somewhat of a minority opinion, sure, but they're both legends) though Charles definitely has the more proven resume at HW...to be fair, Tunney never put a foot wrong at Heavy, but he just didn't have the body of work Charles did. I'd take Charles.
I'm growing to the opinion that Charles was the greatest fighter ever, at least in terms of resume. Tunney would be in deep.
Charles' resume is virtually peerless in history --- the guy fought Hall Of Famers as though it was going out of style. I cannot see Charles left out of any conversation involving the top five or so all-time resumes in the sport, though I do think Tunney is a match for him (anyone in the 175lb. bracket) head-on. Actually, head-to-head, these are my #1 & #2 Light-Heavies.
Of all the footage of Tunney I've never seen him fighting a black dude. That's enough to render him borderline irrelevant to any such discussions in my book.
I don't understand quite what you mean by that. Black fighters have some manner of trait or super-human characteristic other ethnicities don't? Was there a black fighter out there in Tunney's day better, for instance, than Harry Greb? I mean, just as a hypothetical, what if Mayweather (who I know you are a great fan of from the perspective of ability) had never fought a certain ethnicity? Pacquiao hasn't fought an African-American, as has been noted on these boards previously --- surely you don't hold that against him, given his great resume? Tunney has a pretty remarkable ring record, all things told. With that said (& Tunney's CV is excellent), there's no getting around the fact Charles has the better resume, & it's especially noticeable at HW, where Tunney was faultless, but limited (great opposition, just not enough bouts). I have trouble splitting them head-to-head below HW, because Tunney & Charles swap advantages in a lot of categories (as I was saying about the Holyfield-Walcott hypothetical).
Well I'll point out the obvious first - that 95% of great American fighters are black. But whether they have any special physical characteristics which make that so doesn't really matter - it's just that he avoided a massive swathe of the competition of his time. I don't have any knowledge of 20s 175lbers so I won't attempt to give you names of guys who might have been the potential Langford/Burley/Charles on that particular scene, but I'd bet my dog that there were some very good black fighters around who would have made very interesting opponents. And he didn't fight them.....kinda like Floyd hasn't fought allot of very interesting opponents above 135lb for his own particular reasons, precluding him from mention as a historically great welterweight, whether we imagine he would have beaten them or not. Pac hasn't avoided anyone significant.
I get you. Looking back at my post, it appears I'm being facetious, but that honestly wasn't my intention --- & of course, Tunney would've by-passed plenty of excellent fighters (as many Boxers, regardless of their era) have. Looking at the fellas Tunney did fight, though, it is hard to believe his record is as consistent as it was --- one loss? I mean, his victim list is pretty imposing --- several bouts with Greb (like Charles, one of the most unbelievable CV's ever), Gibbons (rather under-rated now, though very respected in his time of course), Carpentier, Dempsey, among others (I'm going off-hand here) & something like ninety bouts...this is a special, special guy we're discussing. I know you say Pacquiao hasn't avoided any significant figures, but there really isn't anyone noted in articles or papers of the day mentioned as someone Tunney should be fighting he didn't. Black fighters weren't beneath recognition as great fighters in Tunney's day (though they unquestionably faced difficulties unseen today)...the likes of Wills &, even before Tunney's time, Johnson, prove this. Tunney, to my knowledge, wasn't ever a target for accusers of ducking, or avoidance (& as you probably know, Tunney was hardly a media favourite, likely to received favourable treatment in the press). His move to HW was seamless & faultless. I'd take Tunney to get the better of Moore, Conn, Foster, Spinks...I have always thought very highly of him. His cunning, strategy, precision, timing, technique, conditioning, chin, hand & footspeed, general footwork & positioning --- he was absolutely first-class in these areas. Even power, for which he was not noted, was respectable (certainly, Dempsey came to respect it, & Dempsey was a hardy man, able to take it as well as dish it out). It would've been a great spectacle to see him in there against a peak Dempsey. In truth, I'd have loved to see Tunney against Charles' opponents. An old Louis, a top-of-his-game Marciano, a peak (or very near-peak) Walcott, the Light-Heavyweight Moore, the likes of Bivins...we'll sadly never know.
No facetiousness inferred. It's a fair concession, tempering what i said previously, that there were WAAAAY more white fighters during that period than there were in coming decades. Italian immigrants, irish Immigrants, Jewish immigrants, all still poor as spit and living in ghettos which must have been racial/cultural powder kegs. So racism wasn't the one and only reason for the dominance of white skin in title fights. And you make a tremendous sales pitch for Tunney's greatness, and I'm buying. But it's still a huge albatross round the neck of guy's like Dempsey & Tunney to my mind in evaluating just how good they were. Because lets face it, even allowing for the changing numbers game, Black American's are kinda decent at sports. ::
They are, & I feel your protest --- I do. I tend to place a rather heavy emphasis on evaluation of the fighters on film, & match it against their resume (with some credence given to reports of the day, in the case of more distant fighters) --- & to that end, Tunney & Dempsey, for two, strike me as every inch great fighters (people are quick to shun Dempsey's skill-set & deftness, for one thing). Being honest, the fact that I would fully expect a fighter like Tunney to perform at a very respectable level, & quite possibly a dominant one, against the best black fighters anyone can name at the 175lb. juncture, both in his day & right through history, leads me toward giving him something of a pass on the subject. Opinions aren't facts, though, & while I definitely place stock in the fact there were virtually no black fighters touted as being worthy or dodged rivals of Tunney, there's no denying it would flesh out his resume more nicely, & ultimately, we cannot know for certain how he'd have fared. I'm confident he'd have got the job done, but I'd be a whole lot more confident in my prediction (either way) if I'd have been present during the day...
