From underrated to overrated... Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes is among my favorite fighters to watch ever and I believe he would have a legit chance of beating prime Muhammad Ali, so obviously I hold him to high regard.

I have also usually ranked him to top-5 in the history of the division, but lately I have started to think that maybe he is a little bit overrated.

A lot of Holmes' reputation is based on his 48-0 record and a vast amount of title defenses. However, just like as boxing experts we are able to see through PBF's or Klitshkos' numbers, I don't think Holmes' numbers get criticized enough.

He did have the ability to find ways to victory, but several of his fights were tough, difficult battles. Shavers was close of KOing him, Snipes hurt him bad. Past-it Ken Norton beat him in the eyes of many (I had it 8-7 Holmes). Green Witherspoon nearly beat him. Weaver, Bonecrusher, Williams and Berbick all gave him a struggle.

Which leads to my second point. I think Holmes gets a bit overrated because of his beautiful technique. When he whacked out Scott Frank or Leroy Jones, he did look phenomenal, but against the better opponents he often had it tough. The Holmes against the poor opponents looked like a top-5 guy, but elsewhere it is quite questionable.

Since IMO the correct way to rate a fighter is to see how well he does (I don't really care about the fighter's style) and since Holmes had several struggles and very few really big victories, I can't place him among the very best of the division. A case can be made that Tyson deserves a higher ranking than him

 

I dunno, I barely hear Holmes mentioned a lot, so not sure if he's overrated. I do see your point, but I rate him fairly high H2H, though there's a lot of guys I'd pick him over that maybe you'd disagree with.

Tyson, is not one of them. I've been saying for 20 years on boxing forums that Tyson beats any version of Holmes, and I've never changed my mind.

Larry always carried the left low, and Tyson would have always have the handspeed to exploit that.

One of the more arguable matchups in heavyweight history will always be Holmes vs Foreman, prime-for-prime. I'm not certain who I'd pick in that one. Some days I think Larry outboxes Foreman, but other days I pick George because Holmes did not have Ali's chin.

 

I agree Holmes is a bit overrated. True his jab is legendary. And his title reign was impressively long. But yeah. He had so many life and death moments.

Still, Holmes was a warrior. He just went to war. And besides having that great jab, he was crafty off the ropes. And his fights were usually exciting.

Holmes/Bowe is an interesting matchup.

 

Holmes beats Bowe.

 

I could see it go both ways. Bowe struggled with Tony Tubbs when entering his prime and his porous defense would be an inviting target for Holmes' jab and cross.

However, Mike Weaver had nothing over Bowe and I could easily see Bowe doing better than him, which could equal to victory

 

You mean Bowe struggled with Tubbs? Good point. And Holmes was a hell of a lot better than Tubbs.

 

Yep. Fixed

 

Sadly, Holmes IS Overrated a Bit...

REED Shares Many of Your Allegiances and Biases FOR Holmes, but it Is What it Is...His Resume is VERY Shaky Considering the Number of Title Defenses, he STRUGGLED in the Midst of a Less than Stellar Resume (As You Indicated) & He Had CHOICES to ENHANCE His Resume in Real Time, Yet Failed To...

For Starters, Why Was There NEVER a Holmes-Norton II???...Beyond That, Why Didn't Holmes Look to Unify w/Michael Dokes, Gerrie Coetzee or Greg Page When they Took Turns Holding the WBA Title???...

Knowing Holmes had Already Stopped Mike Weaver, REED Understood Why Don King Didn't Look to Unify w/Holmes Once Weaver Lucked Up on the WBA Title...Tough Fight to Sell to the Public, So King Milked a Couple Defenses Out of Weaver...But Once Dokes Beat Weaver, Holmes NEVER Acknowledged the WBA Champion @ All...

Holmes was Also the 1st Reigning Heavyweight Champion to LOSE His Title to a Reigning Light Heavyweight Champion...Can't Just Gloss That Over...

Holmes' BEST Controversy Free Wins were Gerry Cooney and Trevor Berbick...Cooney in Particular, Had the ABILITY to Enhance Holmes' Resume After the Fact, But Cooney Fell Apart Mentally After that Loss...





REED

 

Holmes vs prime versions of Liston and Frazier are interesting questions.

 

Frazier Sure...Liston, Ehhhh???....

REED Thinks Liston's Size, Power and Jab Might Be Tooooooooooo Much for Holmes...Who Did Holmes Fight w/a Jab Like Liston's???...

Being Fair Though, it's Not Like Liston Saw Holmes Level Jabs Either, Aside from Ali's...




REED

 

Frazier sure as in sure for Holmes??

Ehhhh, I don't see it.

I don't see how Holmes is better than the 71 Ali. It was no longer the 64-67 Ali, but it was still an Ali had A LOT in the tank, and Joe beat his ass.

I could very well see 71 Frazier's pressure being too much for Holmes.

 

Can't Recall WHO Exactly, But It was Either Tim Witherspoon or Greg Page...

One of Them was Holmes' WBC Mandatory and Larry Ended Up Being STRIPPED for Not Wanting to Either Rematch Witherspoon OR Face Page @ All...

This was Right Around the Time the IBF Came About and They Instantly Anointed Holmes Their Heavyweight Champion...

Not Trying to SHIT On Larry Holmes (For REAL) but he Definitely Could've Done MORE for the Sake of his Own Legacy...






REED

 

REED Meant "Frazier Sure" in Terms of Being "Interesting", as You Stated...Frazier Certainly COULD Beat Holmes, but REED Gives Liston an Even BETTER Chance, Based on the Reasons he Posted...

That's Why REED Said "Liston, Ehhh?"...




REED

 

Ahhhh gotchu!

 

And yes, agreed on Liston.

If Holmes has become overrated, then Liston has become quite underrated, I feel.

Stylewise, I could easily see Liston blasting Holmes.

 

Hard to believe, but Holmes would be quite taller than liston. I think it would prove the difference in a battle of jabbers

 

Yeah. Liston was not a big heavyweight by today's standards.

 

Liston - 6'1, 210-215ish, 84" Reach
Holmes - 6'3, 210-215ish, 81" Reach






REED

 

Personally I don't see Liston over Holmes. His freakish reach would cause some problems for sure, but a big part of Liston's game was to steamroll physically inferior 190 lbs guys. I don't think he'd be as effective with Holmes

 

Yeah, you beat me to it.

A grand total of 2 inches taller...

Liston would be the best heavyweight in the world in 2020.

I would entertain a case for Fury over him (though I'd disagree), but Sonny would eat Beyonce and AJ for breakfast and lunch.

 

Therein lies the misconception - that Liston was all about reach and power, and was just a streamroller.

Liston had excellent boxing ability, and a high ring IQ.

 

He was a very good technician don't get me wrong.

However I believe you'd agree that without the punching power he wouldn't be nearly the same fighter. One thing that gave him room and time to operate was that the opponent had to be do wary of his power, and Liston could trust his own chin.

Everything affects everything, and when he loses some of this power edge facing bigger men, his boxing abilities don't work quite as well either.

I might be in the minority, but I don't see Liston beating Holmes, Holyfield or Tyson at all and I also pick Frazier over him although there Liston has a shot

 

Liston-Frazier might be the best style matchup in heavyweight history, and I've long thought that.

I'd actually rather see Liston-Frazier than Tyson-Foreman.

Joe COULD take Liston into deep water and drown him, but could Frazier walk through the firepower?

Not sure. Maybe not.

Gun to my head... I'd pick Sonny to stop Joe.

 

Liston and Frazier both beat Holmes, as does young Foreman.
Prime Tyson beats him

Holmes was good, GREAT Jab, great boxing but he was no Ali

Holmes is smart though, as many know, after each fight he bought a piece of real estate. He owns a lot of Easten PA now.

 

That was Greg Page.

Holmes was stripped for not fighting Page, he made more money to fight Marvis Frazier.

When people discuss fighters of the past who would get a lot of criticism in the internet age, I’ve always said that Holmes is one of the prime examples. Mainly in the latter part of his reign was he was chasing 49-0 and fought several inexperienced guys.

 

Holmes is not overrated, phonetap believes he is rated accordingly. Holmes wasn’t explosively fast, didn’t have great power but his solid chin and that snapping jab is one of the best. phonetap wouldn’t rate Holmes top 5 heavyweight all-time but certainly top 10.

 

Holmes had it all. Reach, poise, chin, recuperation, adequate power and speed and critically the wherewithal to deal with any style when he had the "Luxury" of a 15 round fight.

His biggest problem was he was so fucking hateful that he seemed to jam up, a la vs Spinks.

That occasion got to him. Not Spinks. If Holmes had been trying to go 20-0 vs Spinks he'd have beaten Spinks HANDY.

 

That pursuit of "The record" ruined him. It made him lose vs Spinks and it meant he tried to get over the line facing bums, we're talking about a guy who fought and defeated really good fighters and here he was fighting Sancho Evangerlista or some shit. Not only did he not get the record he would up making an ass of himself in the press conference. That 49-0 was an albatross. Can't blame him for going for it, but it tainted him a bit.

 

I'd pick Sonny too. Joe just could not deal with mega power. No better man for beating up guys with mid-range power- if Quarry had no skills, just a thick skull and heavier hands, he'd have had a better chance of beating Joe. If you had a hammer in your gloves and no skills you always had a chance vs Joe.

Frazier might be the perfect HW for beating skilled moderately powerful guys. Quarry, Ellis, Bugner that sort of guy was made for Joe. Joe would have beaten guys like Patterson and probably Marciano and I think even Joe Louis.

And Liston would have brought it. I think the only way to beat Joe was to hit him on the top of his head very hard.

Even Ali didn't outbox him in their first fight. And IMHO Ali only bettered him the 2nd time because Foreman had put it on Joe bigtime.

 

Joe would have whooped Patterson and Marciano. Probably Louis also. Don't think they would have the strength or the footwork to keep him off them