Heavyweight Scene - 90's & 70's...Champions!

Thought I'd follow-through on the contenders idea. Picked, IMO, the best champs from the two decades --- excluding the 90's Foreman from consideration.

George Foreman (1973-74) vs. Lennox Lewis (1998-99)
Joe Frazier (1970-71) vs. Evander Holyfield (1990-92)
Muhammad Ali (1974) vs. Mike Tyson (1990)
Larry Holmes (1979) vs. Riddick Bowe (1992)

Foreman KO2 Lewis (Lewis down once in 2nd)

Scorecards: 10-9 (Foreman), 10-10 (Even), 10-9 (Lewis)

Frazier MD12 Holyfield (Holyfield down once in 12th)

Scorecards: 115-112 (Frazier), 114-113 (Frazier), 114-114 (Even)

Ali UD12 Tyson (Ali down once in 4th)

Scorecards: 115-112 (Ali), 115-112 (Ali), 114-113 (Ali)

Holmes SD12 Bowe (Holmes down once in 4th)

Scorecards: 114-113 (Bowe), 115-112 (Holmes), 114-113 (Holmes)

 

Lewis KO 4 Foreman (Lewis won't be able to box George, IMO, it'd be a fire fight and believe it or not I'll take Lewis to have the final word)

Frazier UD 15 Holyfield (9-6, 10-5 type fight, stone cold classic, naturally. I think Holy goes down a couple of times here)

Ali TKO 14 Tyson (very tough fight, Mike's a stylistic nightmare, he should win, but of course Ali will prove too much man for him by the end)

Holmes Draw Bowe (I just have a very hard time envisioning this one so Im sitting on the fence)

 

I placed these over twelve rounds, as I thought that'd be fairer, overall. I'm a proponent of fifteen, really, but with the 12-round distance, you know it's an even playing field, as guys from both these eras were conditioned for that stretch.

Three of my four results would change over fifteen.

I take Frazier to stop Holyfield very late-on in a 15-rounder, with one knockdown preceding a stoppage. It's more exhaustion (& a shirt-full of busted ribs) than actual incoherency which bring Holyfield to the TKO defeat. He just didn't have Frazier's motor, & that's the difference in a fight like these two would wage.

Ali to stop Tyson at some point, possibly on his stool (Ali's decision win over twelve would see Tyson merely hanging on in rounds eleven & twelve). I had Tyson flooring Ali early because, to me, the '74 Ali didn't have the reflexes to completely evade or negate Tyson's speed of hand & precision-punching, each of which were better than Foreman's, with whom Tyson shared similarly-vaunted raw power. Ali gets up & defeats him still, though.

Holmes, IMO, would turn his SD victory over Bowe into a relatively narrow UD. Bowe would push him all the way, irrespective of the distance. At the top of his game, he was leagues better than any of Holmes' title challengers --- a bigger, stronger, more artfully-skilled giant, with formidable, two-fisted power, & three things Holmes really hated in a good right hand, a great inside game, & a long, stiff jab. Holmes, though, never let you ask the question of him, "Can this guy find another gear if he has to?" He did &, threatened with a primed Bowe, he would. Bowe might win one fight in a three or four-bout series with Holmes.

When you say, "fire-fight," do you mean Lewis & Foreman trade bombs, rock & possibly floor one another, until one can't go on? Is that the scenario you see? I ask only because, "fire-fight" has proven a surprisingly flexible term in the past.

 

Well, yeah, by fire fight I mean they'll both be trading with the intention of ending things with some abandon & urgency. Like just about every Lewis fight against a really big guy ends up when he realizes he can't control the range with his jab (Foreman's reach, strength & ability to cut off the ring puts him in that category in this one, IMO). Obviously I think Lewis would end up landing considerably more bombs than George in that circumstance....just an opinion.

 

It might only take one from Foreman, though.

Most interesting to me in such a fight, above all other considerations, is how Lewis approaches the fight. I know what Foreman will try to do. Lewis? Well, he sometimes showed, when faced with a formidable threat, he could go right out there & just end the danger on the spot --- Ruddock, Golota. He put Briggs away pretty quickly, too, once he realised there was a threat. Likewise, in his return with Rahman. He knows Foreman is lethal. He also knows, though, that this is a true ring legend --- not like any of the above men, & that Foreman is a damn tough hombre, showing his mettle against Lyle. Would he dare try for the quick KO, so as to alleviate himself from the prolonged danger of a more cautious fight?

On the other hand, he might be feeling the pressure going in, given Foreman's reputation --- not only as an ungodly puncher, but as a first-class finisher. He might very well try to use his similar size, & weight advantage to lean on & pull Foreman around, stick the jab (very hard to beat when he threw it in high numbers), & hope to stay out of harm's way until Foreman fatigues. He went for just such a fightplan against another sturdy-jawed bomber in Tua.

It'd be really interesting to see which tact Lewis opted for. I don't honestly know if I see him having the stones (or lack of sense, as Lewis was nothing if not shrewd) to go for the fire-fight option, but maybe. You never could be sure with him.

 

Thats exactly the question I asked and personally I think there's only one answer. No way Lewis could keep Foreman contained long enough to avoid a wild one, even if he went in with that intention. It'd be a shortish, violent affair one way or the other, no doubt.

 

Lewis KO 10 Foreman (George can't handle a man that's bigger, stronger and rangier than himself)

Frazier MD Holyfield (slightly controversial decision)

Ali TKO 12 Tyson

Bowe UD Holmes

 

What evidence is there Foreman couldn't handle a bigger man? I think the only man Foreman ever faced --- period --- taller than himself was Cooney, who tells us nothing. Ali was more-or-less the same size. Lyle, likewise. Young was smaller. Peralta, who gave a younger Foreman some trouble, was smaller.

What are you drawing on for your idea Foreman can't handle a bigger fighter? As for the actual idea that Lewis is all of those things, I don't know. Rangier? Can't be more than two or three inches, at most, difference. That's negligible at best. They're an inch apart in height. Stronger? That's pretty debatable. Even if Lewis was, it couldn't be by much, IMO. The only significant difference in size between Lewis & Foreman is the twenty extra pounds Lewis carries --- twenty pounds which visibly made his assault & reflexes slower than Foreman's, whose quickness in running over the top of guys was very much under-rated.

 

Thing with Lewis though is that he's a master at "fighting tall". He wouldn't let Foreman draw him into a brawl and will use his height reach and jab to keep Foreman at bay and then clinch and hold and hit when Foreman get's close.

That's how I see that fight playing out. Foreman get's gradually worn down by Lewis' tactics.

Lyle's a bad example to bring up, naturally, because he almost KOed foreman.

Lewis has a significant reach advantage over Foreman, weight advantage as well

 

I'd pick Holyfield to outpoint Frazier but otherwise I agree with these picks

The biggest deciding factor between Foreman and Lewis is that Lewis had defense for Foreman's best assets: Lewis was good in keeping his distance so he could see George's bombs coming, he is the faster guy so he could fire first and he was strong enough to take away Foreman's inside fighting if needed. Foreman on the other hand could be hit with a right hand and movement gave him trouble: two things that Lennox did well. Lewis' counter right would land often and after five rounds or so the fight would be pretty one-sided

 

Lewis only has a 2" reach advantage over Foreman. He had a bigger reach advantage over Vitali.

 

There's a surprise, UGTBK picks the guys born later (except in the one where the guy happens to be Tyson (or Duran) ::)!

 

:warning:I picked Lewis because he is more black than Foreman.


Bowe-Holmes is a coin toss.

 

:::bears:

 

Lewis beats Foreman because he is better. There are two ways he can beat George. Either:

1. He decides to take Foreman on at his own game and throws bombs. The 'Lewis has a shit chin' myth is exactly that- a myth. So long as he SAW the punches coming, he took 'em very well. The two shots that KO-ed him were a McCall punch thrown as Lewis was landing one of his own (i.e a blind shot) and a Rahman hail-mary shot straight from the Gods. Neither punch is evidence of Lewis having a glass jaw. When Lennox decided to trade, he inevitably ended up the victor, and George was too slow, predictable and one-dimensional to get to Lewis before Lewis got to him as a general rule. I wouldn't rule out George winning two or three out of ten, though.

2. Lewis simply jabs George's head off. Lewis was excellent at using his height and weight advantage to wear down his opponent, and he could frustrate Foreman all night by throwing jab-right hand combo's all night long. Foreman would end up exhausted, frustrated and, eventually, beaten.

MTF

 

I don't think Lewis moved well, or was faster than Foreman.

Feebles --- Everyone saw Foreman's punches coming. Everyone. It's just they couldn't keep them from doing the business. Lewis would have to find a way, but Foreman didn't KO anybody with shots they didn't see.

Sly --- You told me why Lewis is so good as a big man, but not what you've seen to suggest Foreman can't handle a bigger opponent, yet?

 

I think Ali beating foreman has really made foreman become under rated.

 

My feeling from looking at the way Foreman fought...

He was used to bullying opponents who was smaller and weaker than himself. he didn't outbox anyone he just pushed them around and hammered them into submission. There was no science there was just savage brutality. His success was predicated upon his advantage in size, power and strength over his opponents.

I think that very style would have been his undoing against a man of Lewis' size, height and strength (and POWER). not to mention Lewis' style.

Foreman would have run out of ideas, got fristrated and then lewis would have taken him out late.

 

Foreman TKO 5 Lewis
Frazier UD Holyfield
Ali TKO 10 Tyson
Holmes SD Bowe

 

One the one hand I think this is very fair comment, in regards to Foreman. But I don't think Lewis would be able to contain Foreman long enough to become a 'wear you down, frustration' type of night. Lewis was drawn into fights with anybody who could match his jab, and frankly I think Foreman wins the jabbing contest here, especially since the reaches are almost identical. The pick comes down to who you think'll come out on top in a FIGHT, because Lewis isn't outboxing George and wearing him out, no way.

 

It's true he wasn't as durable as Ali, or as elusive as Young.

 

Foreman's biggest KO punch was the uppercut. That is essentially what he was -an uppercutter with devestating power.

Lewis wasn't really vulnerable to that shot in the way that, say, Joe Frazier was. That is why George was such a hideous style matchup for Joe and how he was able to bounce Joe around like he did. The shot which did for Lewis against McCall was a hook he didn't see. George didn't throw that type of punch.

Also, Lewis was far, faaaaaaaaaaar better than any fighter George beat with the exception of Frazier, who Lewis was better than but not as much. Blasting good, average or poor fighters out is one thing, but blasting out Lennox would be a much taller order. As I said earlier, I'd take George to win maybe three out of ten times, but the rest he would lose.

The only other truly elite fighter George fought was Ali, and everyone knows how that ended up, so to say that 'everyone say his punches coming and they still did the business' is false. Against a truly elite HW (albeit one with an awesome chin), George was outsmarted, frsutrated, exhausted and eventually stopped.

Lewis would be more than capable of doing the same IMHO.

MTF

 

I didn't say he KO'ed everyone, just that everyone he did KO saw the punches coming. He disguised virtually nothing. I can't see the case for Foreman not beating good enough opposition to step-up against Lewis, because, for mine, it's Lewis who is stepping up to fight Foreman, having met no one close to him in my book.

His biggest names are a seriously faded Holyfield (because he's still fighting today, people forget how washed-up he already was by 1999) & a completely shot Tyson (in much worse shape than Holyfield had been three years earlier).

Ali used a specific gameplan Lewis, quite clearly, did not have the durability to sustain. Young beat a post-prime Foreman in a manner completely beyond Lewis (at 245lbs, he's far too sluggish to duplicate Young's movement).

If Lewis beats Foreman, it has to be with an entirely new gameplan, & here's the kicker for me --- he has to do it without a single clean, hard blow landing against his chin. I just can't see a guy who wasn't all that fast on his feet pulling that off against Foreman, irrespective of how good his defense was, or may have appeared to have been against the lesser lights of the 1990's.

 

Bowe is NOT beating a prime Holmes!

 

If not, it would be a DAMN close fight. This is one of those MMs where you can make a case for either guy based on your taste and personal bias. After seeing Tony Tubbs giving a hard fight to a near-prime Bowe it is easy to see Holmes outboxing him. And after seeing Carl Williams, Bonecrusher Smith or Mike Weaver giving hard fights to prime Holmes it does not look very clear at all.

Holmes was clearly the greater fighter but he had his difficulties against many guys and Bowe on his best night is a formidable opponent for anobody

 

Lewis' chin was not as bad as people make out. The altitude clearly had an effect in the first Rahman fight, plus he was overweight, he looked knackered after the ring walk. The McCall fight was just one of those things, he didn't see the punch, which was a beauty by the way, and walked straight into it. He improved his defence substantially after that fight, once Steward took over. Feebs is right in that Foreman never beat anyone as good as Lewis, George praised Lennox every time he fought as one of the best heavyweights he ever saw. Whilst its also true Lewis never beat anyone as good as prime Foreman, the "Foreman power + Lewis chin = Foreman devastating KO" analogy is a weak one imo.

 

This is the faulty premise upon which your analysis is based, and it is simultaneously why your anyalsis is wrong.

To try and suggest that Lewis had such a weak chin and/or that Foreman was such a devastating puncher that Lewis had to avoid being hit so much as once or he would be out is ridiculous. Absolutely ridicuous.

MTF

 

It happened. Twice. Against lesser punches, from lesser punchers.

 

No. Every single punch Foreman threw was not as big as the best right cross Rahman could ever throw.

It does not work that easily. If it did, Foreman would have knocked out Ali too (Ali was down and nearly out from lesser punchers and lesser punches than the ones Foreman caught him with)

 

To be fair, Ali absorbed what Lewis could not --- & that, because he wasn't mobile enough to evade Foreman, in his own words. Yet, for mine, even a 32-year-old Ali moved quicker & more nimbly than the 245lb Lewis, who was nevr a quick guy around the ring --- nor should he be expected to be.

I don't know how many punches Lewis could take from Foreman (watching him bounce around the ring at the impact of Briggs' firepower is disturbing in relation to this fight, however), but it sure wouldn't be many. Question becomes can he either take Foreman out early (he has the power IMO, possibly, but whether or not he'd try it is an entirely different ballgame) or tame him & set him up for a points loss or late stoppage or KO.

I can't see either of those scenarios as the likely outcome --- that is, a greater than 50% chance of occurring. Possible, yes, but not probably, IMO. Foreman knocks him out for mine.