No need for our lists. The correct rankings were pubished already some time ago here http://fightbeat.com/article_detail.php?AT=205
Heavyweight- ALI Crusier- HOLYFIELD Lightheavy- SPINKS or MOORE Supermiddle- CALZAGHE Middle- HAGLER or MONZON Jr. Middle- McCALLUM Welter- ROBINSON Jr Welter- PRYOR Lightweight- DURAN or WHITTAKER These R Off the Top of REED's Head...He'll Give the Others Some Thought, as Well as a Lb 4 Lb List... REED
heavy - holmes crusier - holyfield light heavy - spinks super middle - calzaghe middle - hopkins jr. middle - mccallum welter - ray leonard jr. welter - pryor light - whitaker super feather - mayweather feather - sanchez or saddler super bantam - gomez bantam - olivares or jofre super fly - galaxy fly - canto jr. fly - yuh straweight - finito
This is sort sort of thing which requires research, realistically, especially for me and in respect of those lighter weight categories of which, I admit, I am largely ignorant. Off the top of my head: Heavy: Ali Cruiser: Holyfield Light Heavy: Spinks or Charles Supermiddle: Calzaghe (Jones Jr was better but didn't fight there long enough to warrant being ranked above Joe) Middle: Undecided. Take your pick from Jones Jr, Monzon or Hopkins Jr Middle: McCallum Welter: Robinson Jr Welter: Pryor Lightweight: Whittaker Superfeather: Mayweather Feather: Argullo or Pep MTF
It's good to see that there are at least 2 people that I won't have to convince about McCallum being a better 154 pounder than Hearns. :bears: :bears:
Tommy WASN'T There Loooooooong Enough to IMPACT the Division...Ditto for Tito Trinidad... It's like Trying to Rank Roy @ Middle or Supermiddle...Sure, he'd have Likely Beaten ANYBODY N those Divisions Head to Head, but his IMPACT wasn't There Overall... Guys like Roy & Hearns Do Better N Lb 4 Lb Rankings than Divisional Rankings... REED
Good point. It feels weird not being able to put Roy at the head of at least one division because it feels like he SHOULD, surely, be there somewhere, yet when I tried to do it, I couldn't, even at 168 where is quite clearly the best fighter ever to have fought there. You just can't list him ahead of Calzaghe, simply because although Roy would have beaten him (by Joe's own admission) back around 2000, Joe has been at the head of that division for what seems like forever now. Even at middle, I struggle to put him ahead of Bernard, simply because of what Bernard went on to achieve and in spite of his loss to Roy. MTF :dunno:
Roughly,.. Lennox Lewis Evander Holyfield Roy Jones Joe Calzaghe Marvin Hagler Ray Robinson Pernell Whitaker (Goat) Irrelevant Midgets from there on down.
Going to stop after feather as I am extremely uneducated on lower weights: Heavy: Louis Cruiser: Holyfield Light Heavy: Charles Supermiddle: Calzaghe Middle: Hagler Jr Middle: Hearns Welter: SRR Jr Welter: JCC Lightweight: Whitaker Superfeather: PBF Feather: Pep P4P 1) Whitaker 2) SRR 3) Louis 4) Pep 5) Armstrong 6) Benny Leonard 7) Greb 8) Ali 9) Charles 10) Jack Johnson
perhaps u should kill yourself also. I can't believe I'm defending Ray Leonard, but really how much better could this guy's resume be, or skills, or any other criteria...
My lists just include guys from 1930- the sport was just way too different before that, there's no footage and black fighters were avoided like the plague. off the top of my head Heavy Ali Louis Holmes Lewis Foreman Light Heavy Charles Spinks Foster Moore Jones Middle Hagler Monzon Hopkins Robinson Cerdan Welter Robinson Leonard Napoles Gavilan Griffith Lightweight Duran Whitaker Ortiz Williams Mosley Feather Pep Armstrong Saddler Sanchez Pedroza Bantam Jofre Oliverez Zarate Sahaprom Ortiz P4P 1)Robinson 2)Duran 3)Armstrong 4)Ali 5)Leonard 6)Charles 7)Louis 8)Jofre 9)Pep T)Hagler
:: There is an argument to be made based on accomplishments at 154. But Tommy was a better fighter, and would beat Mike at 154
Seriously, at 154 pounds and aside from his big right hand, what did Hearns bring into the ring that was 'better' than McCallum? Whether your talking skill or intangibles, McCallum was the far more well-rounded fighter. Chin, endurance, balance, combination punching, defense, and of course the body attack all go to McCallum at 154 pounds in my opinion.
I'll give you those edges. Offensively, Tommy's jab would control this fight. McCallum was a very good boxer and would be content to box. If they come out bombing, then anything can happen, certainly either guy could KO the other in a firefight, but in a jabbing contest, which is what I think this fight would become...Hearns would win. I'm not denying McCallum's cred's at all, just am of the opinion that Tommy Hearns had really bad luck in losing late to SRL, the best fighter of the last 25 years, after being way ahead.
mccallum was the more dynamic fighter, but not sure if he'd be able to catch hearns late, which is the only scenario i see him winning. i wouldnt be confident in picking either one, but mccallum is clearly the more accomplished of the two at 154 and 160.
All-Time Flyweights. 1. Jimmy Wilde 2. Miguel Canto 3. Pascual Perez 4. Pancho Villa 5. Fidel LaBarba 6. Frankie Genaro 7. Benny Lynch 8. Masahiko Harada 9. Mark Johnson 10. Masao Ohba 11. Chartchai Chionoi 12. Pone Kingpetch 13. Yuri Arbachakov 14. Hiroyuki Ebihara 15. Chan Hee Park 16. Midget Wolgast 17. Shoji Oguma 18. Sot CHitlada 19. Hilario Zapata 20. Peter Kane Top 20 Bantamweights 1. Eder Jofre 2. Carlos Zarate 3. Ruben Olivares 4. Masahiko Harada 5. Panama Al Brown 6. Terry McGovern 7. George Dixon 8. Manuel Ortiz 9. Jeff Chandler 10. Alfonso Zamora 11. Lionel Rose 12. Orlando Canizales 13. Lupe Pintor 14. Jimmy Carruthers 15. Jeff Fenech 16. Sixto Escobar 17. Veerapol Sahaprom 18. Happy Lora 19. Owen Moran 20. Pete Herman Top 10 Junior Featherweights 1. Wilfredo Gomez 2. Erik Morales 3. Marco Antonio Barrera 4. Jeff Fenech 5. Wilfredo Vasquez 6. Daniel Zaragoza 7. Vuyani Bungu 8. Sergio Palma 9. Kennedy McKinney 10. Junior Jones Top 20 Featherweights 1. Willie Pep 2. Sandy Saddler 3. Henry Armstrong 4. Salvador Sanchez 5. Alexis Arguello 6. Kid Chocolate 7. Terry McGovern 8. Eusibio Pedroza 9. Vicente Saldivar 10. Abe Attell 11. Freddie Miller 12. Johnny Dundee 13. Johnny Kilbane 14. Azumah Nelson 15. Baby Arizmendi 16. Naseem Hamed 17. George Dixon 18. Eder Jofre 19. Johnny Famechon 20. Marco Antonio Barrera Honourable mentions: Danny Lopez, Antonio Esparagoza, Sugar Ramos, Ernesto Marcel, Jim Driscoll, Chalky Wright, Erik Morales. 1. Alexis Arguello 2. Julio Cesar Chavez 3. Azumah Nelson 4. Kid Chocolate 5. Sandy Saddler 6. Flash Elorde 7. Floyd Mayweather 8. Johnny Dundee 9. Alfredo Escelara 10. Sam Serrano 11. Hector Camacho 12. Brian Mitchell 13. Todd Morgan 14. Benny Bass 15. Bobby Chacon 16. Rocky Lockridge 17. Cornelius-Boza Edwards 18. Diego Corrales 19. Genaro Hernandez 20. Tyrone Everett 1. Roberto Duran 2. Benny Leonard 3. Henry Armstrong 4. Ike Williams 5. Pernell Whitaker 6. Alexis Arguello 7. Joe Gans 8. Tony Canzoneri 9. Barney Ross 10. Julio Cesar Chavez 11. Carlos Ortiz 12. Lou Ambers 13. Ismael Laguna 14. Jimmy Carter 15. Ken Buchanan 16. Estaban DeJesus 17. Shane Mosley 18. Nicolino Locche 19. Hector Camacho 20. Lew Jenkins Honourable Mentions: Floyd Mayweather, Oscar De La Hoya, Jim Watt, Edwin Rosario, Joe Brown, Ad Wolgast, Freddie Welsh and Bob Montgomery Top 10 Junior Welterweights 1. Aaron Pryor 2. Barney Ross 3. Antonio Cervantes 4. Tony Canzoneri 5. Julio Cesar Chavez 6. Wilfred Benitez 7. Dulio Loi 8. Kostya Tszyu 9. Carlos Ortiz 10. Jackie Berg Honorable mention: Jack Blackburn, Packey McFarland, Pernell Whitaker, Nicolino Loche, Saul Mamby, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather. Top 20 Welterweights 1. Ray Robinson 2. Ray Leonard 3. Henry Armstrong 4. Kid Gavilan 5. Jose Napoles 6. Emile Griffith 7. Thomas Hearns 8. Mickey Walker 9. Luis Rodriguez 10. Carmen Basilio 11. Joe Walcott 12. Jack Britton 13. Barney Ross 14. Felix Trinidad 15. Jimmy McClarnin 16. Ted Lewis 17. Roberto Duran 18. Oscar De La Hoya 19. Donald Curry 20. Pipino Cuevas Jr Middleweight Rankings 1. Thomas Hearns 2. Terry Norris 3. Mike McCallum 4. Nino Benvenuti 5. Julian Jackson 6. Wilfred Benitez 7. Emile Griffith 8. Julio Cesar Vasquez 9. Felix Trinidad 10. Ayub Kalule Honorable mentions: Koichi Wajima, John Mugabi, Maurice Hope, Winky Wright, Gianfranco Rossi and Davey Moore. Top 20 Middleweights 1. Carlos Monzon 2. Sugar Ray Robinson 3. Harry Greb 4. Marvin Hagler 5. Bernard Hopkins 6. Stanley Ketchel 7. Roy Jones 8. Bob Fitzsimmons 9. Mickey Walker 10. Charley Burley 11. Gene Fullmer 12. Tony Zale 13. Jake LaMotta 14. Dick Tiger 15. Marcel Cerdan 16. Holman Williams 17. Les Darcy 18. Tiger Flowers 19. Rodrigo Valdez 20. Carmen Basillio 1. Ezzards Charles 2. Bob Foster 3. Archie Moore 4. Michael Spinks 5. Gene Tunney 6. Sam Langford 7. Roy Jones 8. Billy Conn 9. Bob Fitzimmons 10. Tommy Loughran 11. Harry Greb 12. Harold Johnson 13. Maxie Rosembloom 14. Matthew Saad Muhammad 15. Jimmy Bivins 16. Philidelphia Jack O'Brien 17. Joey Maxim 18. Dwight Muhammad Qawi 19. Dick Tiger 20. Victor Galindez Guys on the cusp: Lloyd Marshall, Virgil Hill, Dariusz Michaelchewski, Jeff Harding, Dennis Andries, Marvin Johnson, Eddie Mustapha Muhammad, Freddie Mills, Georges Carpentier Top 20 Heavyweights 1. Joe Louis 2. Muhammad Ali 3. Larry Holmes 4. Jack Johnson 5. Rocky Marciano 6. Jack Dempsey 7. George Foreman 8. Joe Frazier 9. Lennox Lewis 10. Gene Tunney 11. Sonny Liston 12. Evander Holyfield 13. Mike Tyson 14. Jim Jefferies 15. Riddick Bowe 16. Ezzard Charles 17. Jersey Joe Walcott 18. Ken Norton 19. Floyd Patterson 20. Sam Langford
Top 15 P4P 1. Ray Robinson: - Most talented fighter of all-time. #1 welterweight and my #2 middleweight. Amazing. 2. Roberto Duran: - In his lightweight prime, Duran has my vote for the fighter who came the closest to perfection. The man was an absolute beast, who once released upon his opponents would systematically mutilate them as the rounds passed. Also happened to take out an undefeated Leonard @ 147 and won the middleweight crown as well. 3. Henry Armstrong: - The greatest in your face fighter of all-time. Had power to spare in each hand and the will to give it to you for 15. 19 welterweight defences, featherweight, lightweight and welterweight champion simultaneously. Top 3 all-time @ 126, 135 and 147. What else needs be said? 4. Muhammad Ali: - Sometimes falls below Louis simply because they favour Joe's offensive talents, over Ali's all around physical ability. For his size, he had incredible hand speed, a terrific chin and just beat everybody in the greatest heavyweight era of all-time. No other justification is needed. 5. Ezzard Charles: - Could possibly be the most underrated fighter of all-time. I continually come across people who say "Ezzard Charles? You mean the guy that beat the old Joe Louis?" No, I mean Ezzard Charles, the man who dominated Archie Moore three times and every other light heavyweight of his era. Without doubt in my mind, the #1 light heavyweight all-time, who also happened to be an excellent heavyweight champion in his time as well. 6. Joe Louis: - Near flawless offensive fighter, with all the punches in the book. Could through combinations like he was a middleweight, but possessed the punch of a small explosive device. Record number of heavyweight title defences, and had the heart to possibly beat anyone who ever lived. 7. Eder Jofre: - This Brazilian wonder, was the best bantamweight of all-time. Terrific boxer-puncher who gave just about the best imitation of a 118 pound Ray Robinson as anyone ever could. Only two losses of his career came in back to back fights to the great Fighting Harada, when Jofre had great difficulty making the 118-pound limit. 8. Carlos Monzon: - My #1 middleweight of all-time. The lanky Argentinean used his jab and long right hands to slowly dismantle his opponents. He didn't LOOK like a one of the best fighters of all-time now and then, but once the slow starting Monzon got rolling, little could be done to derail him. Held the record for most middleweight defences, until Bernard Hopkins recently broke it. 9. Harry Greb: - In large, he remains a mystery, but to not include him would tarnish his legend. I've decided to place him here, although I don't feel confident no matter where he is. His record however does speak for itself. Only man to defeat Gene Tunney. Has wins over Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers, Tommy Loughran and Kid Norfolk. Over 300 fights, with a winning percentage of over 90. 10. Ray Leonard: - Here is a pick that I believe may irk a few. Leonard has the resume and the talent to be within the top five, yet sits @ 10. Why? Well, his career really did stop and start, thus eliminating the sort of draw out dominance, which I like to see. Hagler was on his last legs and I still think he did enough to retain his title. Splitting with Duran is fine, and stopping Tommy Hearns and Wilfred Benitez is great wins. Just too many retirements unfortunately, ruined his prime. 11. Willie Pep: - The best defensive fighter of all-time. How do you beat someone you can't touch with a broomstick? Won 135 of his first 136 fights, with the only loss to lightweight king, Sammy Angot. Even after a plane crash nearly killed him, he was still able to knock off top competition. Sandy Saddler may have had his number, but there is no shame in that. 12. Sam Langford: - Dominant fighter at just about every weight from welterweight upward. Incredible KO power in each hand, chin and immense talent/ability for his time. Without doubt, the greatest fighter never to win a world title, even though he was never afforded the chance. 13. Archie Moore: - The all-time record holder of KO wins, Archie is a popular choice as the #1 light heavyweight of all-time. Personally, I don't like him there, but there is little not to love about the 'Old Mongoose'. As crafty as anyone who ever fought, Moore's patience and punch helped him be dominant well into his 40's. Might have even been a better middleweight, but we might never know. 14. Benny Leonard: - If Pep was the best defensive fighter of all-time; Benny would not be far behind. A genius in the ring, he had talents many men ranked above him lacked. Good punch, and Ray Arcel will insist he was better than Duran. I don't quite think that, but as a lightweight, it is indeed a close race between the two. 15. Marvin Hagler:- The dominant middleweight, during a terrific period for 160 pounders. Has wins over hall of famers, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran along with a razor thin, and very controversial loss to Sugar Ray Leonard. A tough, iron chined, yet incredibly talented fighter, Hagler was a joy to watch. Conjured up images of Carlos Monzon, such was the manor in which he ruled the division. They are split narrowly on head-to-head ability. I think Monzon was slightly the better fighter. **I rank fighters on the following criteria: 1. Display of skills, abilities and technique 2. Accomplishments 3. Competition 4. Dominance 5. Longevity, And finally 6. Head-to-head, against the other greats. **No current fights are ranked, as I do not like chopping and changing my lists as fighters win and lose. Once they retire, they become eligible for inclusion.
Cool post. I wouldn't agre with some, notably the order of your top 5 junior middles, nor pryor at #1 at junior welter but other than that....worth making a top 5 for supermiddle. cruiser and the lower weights?
