I got Joe. I think he wears Holyfield down to the body, and he’d also take advantage of Holyfield’s tendency to want to brawl. Frazier via competitive but clear UD in a 12 rounder, and if it’s 15, I think he stops him.
I got vander in a close one. He was a bit more compact than joe, and that would be the difference in the long run
The Frazier of Ali 1 would beat the shit outta Holy IMO. I don't even see it as all that debatable. Holy is greater and all, but at NO POINT was Holyfield as good as Frazier was that night. Both men in the Garden that night would have fucked Holyfield up. Frazier TKO 13.
What long run? Holyfield isn't outlasting Frazier. Joe had MUCH MUCH better stamina. The narrative about Holyfield being some marathon guy is false. Holyfield did not have the best stamina. Frazier has an overwhelming edge in that department, so Vander's best chance is actually to catch Frazier early.
Not necessarily outlast him, but get his timing. I think holy would counter him more and more as the rounds goes on
The fact that Qawi's style gave Evander so much Hell should let you know off the bat that Frazier is a nightmare for him. Frazier is quite literally the worst possible matchup for Holy of any heavyweight.
I think you're overrating Holy based on what he was able to do against post-prison Tyson. Frazier presents an entirely different picture for him than Mike does. In fact, those three are kind of a triangle. Holy is all wrong for Tyson, Tyson is all wrong for Frazier, and Frazier is all wrong for Holy.
Holy was more intelligent at that point than he was against qawi. Hed clinch a lot more and use his size and strength to make it a more tactical fight. As you said, frazier would gives him a lot of stylistical problem, but i think vander at hw was big, intelligent, and good enough to overcome them, albeit barely
I maintain that Holy is just not as good as peak Frazier. He's GREATER, but at no point was Holy as good as the Frazier who destroyed Ellis and battered Ali.
There's nothing Holy brings to the table that Ali didn't surpass. Not even power, as I think early 70s Ali had better pop than Holy. The big differences are that Ali had a far better chin than Holy, and Ali had far better stamina than Holy... and still Frazier whipped him. Holy would not be able to keep up with that version of Frazier.
Its close to me imo. Frazier gets widely underrated, his offense and bob and weave were among the best there was. But he also had some flaws, that a guy like holy, who wasnt a slouch himself, could use to his advantage. I think styles favour.slightly holy to be honest. I think his chin was good enough to withstand most of frazier blows, and i like his compact left hook to get in there and hurting frazier eventually
I think its worth comparing the two when there isn't anything Holy did better than Ali. Well, ok, Holyfield could throw a left hook a helluva lot better than Ali, but that kinda bites him in the ass against Joe. Whats kinda surprising is this... peak Frazier actually had a better defense than Holy.
This has always been my favourite heavyweight MM, and even though I side with Frazier, I'm surprised anyone thinks it'd be one-sided/one-way traffic. These two are gonna exchange in the pocket, and it's gonna be violent. I agree with JOM that Holyfield being a more compact fighter and I think he was a bit quicker. Holyfield definitely hit harder than Ali IMO. These two are on a very similar level. That said, I do think Frazier stops him. Holyfield fought two men who fought like a prime Frazier. One is Dwight Qawi, whom he almost lost to, and the other is Bert Cooper, who also almost beat him. Frazier almost stopped Ali on a few occasions, and as it's been mentioned, Ali was tougher than Holyfield. I think Frazier lands something horrible in the midst of a great fight.
Ali would never be stopped by Bowe, or Toney. You throw in an old Holyfield with Shavers from the Ali fight and Holy gets KTFO'd. Especially if he takes those shots.
One thing I can say for sure is that it would be a guaranteed classic. I could see them trading knockdowns and having several shifts in momentum. I think Joe’s underrated defense would serve him well, though. He would pick off and slip a lot of Holyfield’s punches and land devastating counters as the fight goes on. Holyfield will be dangerous early on. He’ll come out fast like in that first fight with Bowe and land some hurtful stuff before Joe starts to ‘smoke.’ I think from the mid to late rounds the tide turns permanently in Frazier’s favor.
I don't think there's a big gap between the two. That's not to belittle Ali either. To me, both are on such high level that making a distinction between them is very difficult. Both could take enormous punishment, and both were downed by single shots at times. Holyfield got hurt more, but his style was also such that he got hit more, and more cleanly. Ali was more difficult to knock out because of the combination of his defense and chin, but chin for chin they are not easy to separate.
