I told you all

About Pacman, that he lost his fire.

It was plainly evident last night. It was a more technically adept pacman, but one without the fury and fire that made him so successful.

The pacman of old had a perfect mix of speed and power to compliment a high energy, fearless and ferocious attacking style.

THAT is what made him an overnight star, and got him onto the P4P lists.

I think becoming a superstar has softened pacman up, he doesn't have that same desire and fire.

Last night he looked flat, apprehensive, and often disinterested. He showed fire at times, but ultimately he didn't have it.

Before fights he prays that both fighters are safe, and don't get hurt.

The pacman of the past liked laying a beatdown on his opponents.

I think he should retire, because his heart's not in it, and being the Filipino national icon, he'll still be able to sustain a very high income.

One thing that was also evident last night, is pacman has a fucking solid chin. Bear in mind, he started as a flyweight.

 

Nah, I think Marquez just made him a bit tentative with that counter right hand.

 

agreed.

Although there were several "lulls" in the fight where manny wasn't attacking, moreso than usual. Marquez certainly had the upper hand when they were throwing one shot at a time, and Marquez was able to land that counter right.

But almost everytime Pacquiao opened up, he had success. I wish he had been more consistent with his activity and energy level, but as it is I thought he did more than enough to win so:dunno:

 

Agreed with Holler & Jaws.

Pacquiao was on point last night. What was that different about last night...vs. '04; where the same dynamics were present to a slightly greater or lesser extent?

THAT right there tells you that it's not about Manny "not having fire"; it's about WHO he's FACING. That's simply a refusal to give JMM much credit.

Pacquiao looked that way in the first match, too; for the majority of rounds 3-12 (no matter who you had winning)...and that was at his best weight of 126, 4 years ago when he supposedly "had" fire.

The fact is there were rounds where Manny tried to swarm - but he was usually dissuaded by JMM's counters and tactics.

The fight was at 130 lbs. - and Marquez has more dynamite in his hands than Barrera or Morales (at 126 or 130) or Solis or whoever...that's a big factor.

That, and JMM's timing, accuracy and willingness to mix it up if he had to is what kept Manny tentative. You can't wade in when the return fire can catch you clean and WILL hurt you - as Manny found out in the first fight and 3-4 times in the rematch.

Manny was on point for this fight. Both men were.

Peace.

 

It could also be how he feels that particular night. Some nights you have it some nights you don't.

 

True as well....but he was as prepared as he ever has been. And you can bet that if JMM HAD given him an opening or shown weakness, Pac would have been ALL OVER that ass.

He tried in the 3rd but time ran out....and JMM fOUGHT BACK.

That's something that Barrera learned too...first fight, MAB would cover up when Pac would swarm - and try to get lucky with a shot or simply clinch.

IN the rematch, when Pac swarmed...Barrera let his hands go. That's what Morales did. That's what Marquez did in both fights.

It makes a difference.

Peace.

 

Absolute rubbish. He was like that from the first second of the first round. It was nothing to do with Marquez' counter right.

He also showed the same lack of passion in the Barrera rematch.

Last night, the only time he showed a bit of his old fire was when Marquez was cut or hurt.

 

I'm sorry Donny but you're talking crap. I've been saying this since the first round of the solis fight, Pacman has lost his fire, he doesn't really want to fight anymore.

He's just going through the motions now, it has NOTHING to do with Marquez.

It started with Solis, and was just as evident with Barrera and Marquez.

 

whatever dude. Just give JMM his props. He had enough smarts, skill and power to frustrate Manny once again.

Last year against solis he finished him. AGainst bArrera he made him fight like a bitch to survive 12 rounds.

Maybe you overrated Manny like alot of people thinking he was gonna ko everyone he face every fucking time.

I bet you he will destroy David Diaz and you will claim his "fire" is back. But in reality David Diaz is a slower, mediocre fighter that will get fucked up by Manny.

 

you must think fighting at a high level is easy if you think beating a pfp fighter in Marquez is going through the motions.

Did you think Manny had the fire 4 years ago? He also dropped Marquez and couldn't finish him.

That fight was similar to the one last night in many ways.

don't worry he will ko David Diaz and his "fire" will be back according to you.

 

Exactly, bro.

 

When Manny was wild and coming forward off balanced people said he was raw and needed to be polished.

Freddy Roach did a lot of work with Manny. I did see manny lunging in setting up his left like the last fight. But it was in a more controled manner.

JMM just kept him honest because he would always catch him coming in with his own right hand. That JMM right hand was landing all night. Sometimes when when JMM lead and sometimes just countering and letting Manny walk into it.

Just cause manny didn't get dropped don't mean they weren't hard shots.

 

THat's exactly what I keep asking - 4 years ago, at a better weight for both men.

What, exactly, was so different about Pacquiao back then (other than the fact that he's improved technically); given the fight played out VERY similarly to the first in so many ways?

As I said in my post above and in the OTHER thread - go back prior to the 3 fights and you STILL find the very same effect from Manny - he has always to a large extent been a streaking fighter, and you can extend that as far as 8-9 fights ago, and even back to the beginning of his career. He 'streaks' from fight to fight, and he does it in fights as well.

Very unlike JMM, who is always very consistent (which has been his bane too, actually).

I accept that Manny is declining, sure. He's been fighting since he was 16 and has 61 fights on his odometer, in his 5th weight division or so.

But so is JMM.

Is he more calculated now? Sure.

But I just can't understand how people can expect Manny to fight exactly the same way no matter who he has in front of him....as if he could just affort to discount the incoming and skill level of the opponent regardless of who he's facing - especially when it's at 130 lbs and JMM punches harder there than any other opponent Manny has faced at 126 or 130.

And how a fighter performs is partly affected by what his opponent does.

In the Ledwaba fight (Lehlo being one of my favorite boxers), Manny fought quite calculated - until he saw Ledwaba was hurt and began to break down. Then he pounced. And that was what - 8 years ago?

MWS - we can agree to disagree. That's cool, my friend.

Peace.

 

U're Absolutely RIGHT, MEX...REED Tried to Convince U Otherwise, but Manny Clearly DOESN'T Have that "Fire", that FEROCITY Anymore...Your Suspicions were CORRECT All Along, Dog...

Even N the Last Round, which REED Was CERTAIN Manny HAD to Win N Order to Make a Case for Taking the Title, Manny Fought Almost PASSIVELY (for him):dunno: ...

REED has NEVER Seen Manny RETREAT Soooooooo Much...Sure, Manny would Get PISSED & Retaliate Here or There, but for the Most Part, there was NO AGGRESSION Out of Him...Not the Kind we're Accustomed to, Anyways...

He WASN'T Even as Aggressive Last Night as he was N the 1st Fight...

Manny has NEVER Been RELUCTANT to Get into EXCHANGES, yet there were Virtually NONE Last Night...Even N Knocking Down Marquez, Manny was DEFENSIVE Just Prior...The Knockdown was an Almost DESPERATE COUNTER...

What Really DISAPPOINTED REED is that Manny made NO EFFORT to Test how HURT Marquez was, to Start Round 4...

It's SAD, but Clearly, Manny Pac ISN'T the Same Guy...& if he's SERIOUS about Moving Up to 135, REED Sees a KO Loss N his Future...



REED:doh:

 

you just refuse to give JMM any credit man::

I bet when Pacquiao stretches Diaz you will claim his fire is back. Even though Diaz isn't even close the fighter JMM is.

 

Bullshit, Donny...

Manny was MUCH More Aggressive N the 1st Fight...Even as he was LOSING Rounds to Marquez...He was just Tooooooo BASIC to Make his Aggression WORK for him N that Bout...

Last Night, Manny was a More COMPLETE Fighter, but he LACKED the KILLER INSTINCT, that "Devil May Care" Attitude he USUALLY Has...Shit, even his Customary "Primal" Grin that U've Pointed Out, was NEVER There During the Ringwalk OR the Fight...

Look @ How Manny Reacted to the Cuts vs. Marquez & Compare that to how LIVID he was, when he was Cut by Agapito Sanchez???...TOTALLY DIFFERENT Guy...Manny's Cut was WORSE against Sanchez, Manny Sucked it Up & LITERALLY LICKED his Own Blood...Against Marquez, it was As if Manny Feared his Acting Career would Suffer...

Tactically, Manny was Better, but his Success has NEVER Been about how TECHNICAL He is...Marquez will ALWAYS Get the Better of Manny N a TACTICAL Fight & Manny & Roach HAD to Know that...

There was OPPORTUNITIES that Manny Left ON the Table(COUNTLESS Uppercutting Opportunities)& his Workrate was about as LOW as REED has EVER Seen it....



REED

 

I actually agree with latinking.

Pacquiao didn't destroy a Top 5 P4P entrant because it's really hard to do so. I saw Pac winning by 2-3 points clearly, but it was a close fight.

Pacquiao will get dragged into deep waters at 135 though, he won't be on top forever.

For now why don't you guys drop the flame baiting and recognize that Pacquiao has a victory over ALL of the great featherweights of his time (Barrera, Morales, and Marquez). That's very impressive.

 

REED Thought JMM WON the Fight...Is THAT Enough "Credit" For U???:dunno: ...

He BEAT Manny Pac Last Night...

Even an IMPRESSIVE Win Over Diaz WON'T Change the FACT that Manny has CLEARLY Lost his Fire...Like MEX Pointed Out, the Shit has Been APPARENT Since the Solis Fight...


REED

 

you know I actually don't have a problem with Manny getting the W

it was a close fight and I had JMM winning. But after two fights I refuse to think Manny is superior to JMM no fucking way.

Remember when Morales beat pacquiao? Pacquiao's improvement destroyed Morales twice after that.

Many thought after four years the same thing would happen against JMM. However it was the same case as the first fight. Manny with his relentless attack and JMM timing him to the point where he frustraed him and cought him coming in alot.

I disagree with 135 because he will only fight David Diaz. That is a gimme fight. Morales damn near beat him. And I thought he looked like shit last night in the opening fight.

 

Diaz isn't a gimmie fight for any walk in fighter. David is strong as an ox and will not be moved backwards by Pacquiao very easily. Can Manny fight on the backfoot for stretches? Cos he will most likely have to.

 

what the hell do you want from Manny? he is fighting a skilled pfp and you want manny to destroy that caliber of fighter in the first round?

Maybe you overrated Manny. did you see him coming in so many times and getting caught with right hands? Just cause he didn't fall don't mean he wasn't buzzed or hurt.

Manny has such a great chin and heart people overlook the punches he takes in fights.

you sound as if Manny wasn't getting hurt and for some unknown reason decided not to be more agressive.

 

Manny is fast enough and strong enough to overwhelm Diaz.

of course Diaz is tough. But to beat Manny you need more than toughness. You need skill and I think Diaz is a mediocre fighter. Tough come forward and tailor made for Manny.

Manny won't have a hard time finding him. I think Manny will land too many shots on him that he will stop him in the middle of the fight somewhere.

 

It's NOT about Destroying Someone or even Getting a KO...

It's about BEING the Guy U've ALWAYS Been...The WORKRATE, the FEROCITY, the ATTITUDE...

Manny's CUT was a VERY POIGNANT Moment N the Fight...Against Agapito Sanchez(& Erik Morales, to a Lesser Degree), Manny Fought HARDER...He Got PISSED & Inflicted some HURT...Against Marquez, it Seemed that Manny Went into a Shell...& the Cut WASN'T as Bad as the Sanchez Cut...

It's Funny, this Guy is Making MOVIES, ALBUMS, Running for OFFICE & Sleeping w/the Most BEAUTIFUL Women his Country has to Offer...He's even Spending MORE Time N his Homeland "Training" than Before, yet NOBODY Wants to even ENTERTAIN the Idea that he's LOST his Fire or ISN'T as HUNGRY as he 1nce was???:dunno:


REED

 

he was doing that shit last year. It was well documented that he stopped all that shit for this training camp and was focused. So that excuse won't fly.

 

yeah but ONLY the Manny Pac without the fire, because the one WITH fire is unbeatable... credit my ass...


Pacman knew if he showed too much of that fire he will get his face bashed in like in rounds 2-12 of the first fight. That's why he didn't rush in like a dumbass.

Pavlik prolly lost his fire, too in the second Taylor fight...

 

Uuuuh, when EXACTLY Did REED Say ANY of that???:dunno: ...By ATTEMPTING to Put Words N REED's Mouth, U're INSERTING a FOOT N your Own...

Erik Morales BEAT a Manny who had "Fire"...REED is Pretty Sure Manny had his "Fire" when he TWICE Got KO'ed @ Lower Weights...

Manny was MUCH MORE Aggressive Throughout 2-12 of the 1st Fight than @ ANY Point of the RE...



REED

 

1nce U've LOST that Edge, it's Virtually IMPOSSIBLE to Get it Back...

Just Cause he Stopped it for THIS Fight DOESN'T Mean that Manny GOT his EDGE Back...REED NEVER Said Dude WASN'T N Shape...REED Even Acknowledged that he was BETTER Technically...But w/Out his EDGE, Manny's NOT the Same Guy...


REED

 

It's impossible for someone like Pacquiao to have the zen like discipline of a Bernard Hopkins.

He's too famous, too much in the public eye, and too much of an icon.

Hopkins is the kind of guy who can disappear for 3 months for training camp and no one will care.

Pacquiao is the kind of guy who disappears for 3 DAYS and people will be asking questions.

That's Manny's purpose in life. Sure, it may lead him to lose a fight in the future, but that's all trivial. I don't think a lot of you realize how much Manny has transcended the sport of boxing. That in itself is more impressive than any of his accomplishments in the ring. Very few fighters can claim this kind of accomplishment. Manny is a big part of the history of the featherweight division now, and in 20 years, yours kids (or grand kids) will be talking about the greatest featherweights in the sport and Manny's name will come up over and over by default.

 

yes and did it work better for him this time, after he LOST his fire... maybe he just got a lil cleverer...

 

Thankyou REED, good post, what you say is all true.

It seems like only me, you, Tam and BTG see this :dunno:

He's just lost that "fire" that was one his major factors, it's pretty much as simple as that isn't it?