Israel Vasquez question

Most fans and experts would tell you that Vasquez either has the most heart in boxing or he's right up there.

Is he the only boxer in history to receive such a distinction after having quit in his corner once in the last year?

 

I remember the same conversation about Acelino Frietas only a couple of years ago. It is indeed a toughie.

 

Probably! :: Interesting situation.

Point is he has PROVEN his heart in fights prior....and even more importantly, in the two fights AFTER him 'quitting.'

Credibility is critical here.

That's why we cannot afford to lose our heads and scream "quitter!" every time a boxer elects to not continue fighting....they and ONLY THEY know what is happening to their body and what they can continue to do.

This is especially true when people accuse boxers of this when they clearly have proven their 'heart' in other bouts prior.

Peace.

 

No doubt Vazquez has heart, but I would never put him in the upper class in this category because a fighter shouldn't quit for a broken nose imo.

 

It is an interesting situation. I'm not arguing if Vazquez made the right or wrong decision in the first Marquez fight... I'm just pointing it out.

I honestly can't think of another fighter who received so much love for their fighting heart after refusing to come out of their corner so recently. In a fight that was still on the table, no less.

 

It's a toughie....but again, only the BOXER knows what he's feeling, what is happening, the condition of his opponent and what he believes he can do.

And I hate it when fans claim otherwise and set artificial standards for things like this.

Larios II, Jhonny Gonzalez, Valbuena, Licona, Velazco; multiple fights with lacerations and cuts....if it was purely a 'heart' issue he would have 'quit' long before now.

Peace.

 

A part of REED wants to Agree w/Donny when he Says ONLY the Fighters THEMSELVES Know what they can Endure...

But as FANS, we EXPECT Those Guys to Endure MORE than the Average Couch Potato, Don't we???...Shit, REED Could Get N a Ring & QUIT Against Anybody...Where's the Check???:dunno: ...

There R Circumstances, Obviously...Tszyu Sat there SILENTLY as his Trainer Threatened to Stop the Fight...Ray Robinson Nearly DIED Due to Heat Exhaustion...Joe Frazier & Ali had Fights STOPPED by their Corners...Duran Pulled the No Mas...Even Julio Cesar Chavez QUIT vs DeLa of All People...

REED has Read Supporters of Tszyu & Duran Throwing Ali, Robinson & Frazier UNDER the Bus, but CLEARLY, the Circumstances Differ...

As it Pertains to Israel Vasquez, REED Cuts him some SLACK Based on Vasquez IMMEDIATELY Pursuing a RE w/the Guy that Made him Tap Out...LITERALLY, Vasquez ERASED the Memory of him Quitting, N his Next 2 Bouts...

N Most of the Other Instances, the Fighter QUITS then Never even CONSIDERS a RE w/the Guy that Forced him to Give Up on Himself...


REED

 

Well, with Vazquez, he had an injury that was visibly affecting him.

I mean, being unable to breathe is a pretty good excuse to quit in my book.

 

I'm not sure it's a tough assessment to make at all. Vazquez proved his heart on more than a few occasions before ever stepping in the ring with Marquez. For example, his fights with Larios and his fight with Jhonny Gonzalez. That, along with his subsequent wins over Marquez, neither of which were walks in the park for him, mean that he gets the benefit of doubt. It's ludricrous to hold Vazquez's quitting against him, or to question his heart because of it. The only sound conclusion, given his history, and given his subsequent performances, is that he seriously could not breathe. Remember - fighters have to wear mouth pieces - the ability to breath through their nose is essential. I don't think there's even a slight connection that can be made between his quitting in that fight and the prowess of his fighting heart. And I don't think it diminishes or disqualifies him as one of the current game's guttsiest fighters out there right now.

 

Arthur Abraham has more heart.

 

To me it just shows how impressive Marquez was in the first fight.

Vazquez is no quitter he has been in multiple tough fights and come thru alot of adversity.

Even if you considered him to be a quitter, and i know most people here didn't after the first fight. You have to admit he has more then redeemed himself.

 

I think it is a pretty good excuse too. Knowing how tough Vazquez is im sure it was something very serious to make him quit.

 

Agree.

 

like JJ Leija.

 

What do you mean 'even Julio Cesar Chavez"? He quit more than once.
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Freitas is a good one. Only retard haters called him a quitter against Corrales. But his quit job against Juan Diaz is one of the worst I've ever seen.
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Personally, I don't like the quit job in Frazier Ali 3. I would have sent him out and I would have expected him to make more of a protest when his corner didn't.

 

To add another "wrinkle" to this dicussion, i think part of the equation (if you want to call it that) is when the submission happened in a fighter's career.

Once a fighter has made a name in the sport, is financially comfortable, has many other interests outside of boxing such as family finances etc ...

I suppose it's easier to accept. Take for example Kostya Tszyu. He trained very hard for the Hatton fight. I think he was perpared in that sense, just not for the kind of fight it turned out to be. He was betting brutalized inside by a younger guy who had the whole arena behind him.He even took a full on low blow without the ref taking a point away to add to the misery.

His corner suggested stopping the fight. Did he protest? No he didn't. However what if they never even suggested it, and just treated it like any other round? Perhaps Kostya trusted the word of his cornerman and thought "If they think maybe it should be stopped, perhaps it should?"

I know the Frazier-Ali fight was much more brutal that Hatton-Tszuu but i think a similar dynamic applied.

 

Yes, and I'd say that through the first 6 rounds he did JUST that, bro.

Most fighters do just that every time they step into the ring. They do "owe" the fans their money's worth; I agree with that...we are paying to see them be Professional Fighters. But that doesn't mean it's 'fight to the death' - I've never agreed with that way of thinking; as if boxing is somehow different from other sports and is meant to be Gladiatorial.

I get your gist, but 95% of the "quitting" accusations are waaaay overblown.

I've been in the ring a paltry sum compared to Pros - but that is enough to know that I will never, ever, call a professional fighter a "quitter". I mean, it has to be incredibly obvious.

Your next-to-last paragraph regarding Izzy is a great point.

Peace.

 

Bingo. :clap:

 

Yup.

 

No doubt he did show heart vs. Miranda....but he also got ALOT of time to evaluate, think it over, talk it over, feel around, think about it some more...

::

And he could breathe just fine.

Vazquez had no such luxury and had to make a spur-of-the-moment decision.

Israel also immediately pursued the rematch.

Peace.

 

Soooo... the answer to my question is "no"?

Just in comparision to other warriors of this decade... do you guys think Diego Corrales or Arturo Gatti would have quit in IV's situation?

 

This is why I agreed with Azazel. Whatever level you put Vazquez at, there has to be at least one higher level (and probably more) for guys like Chico and Gatti.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Probably not....but have their noses been broken to the point that they literally could not breathe? I haven't seen Israel quit for any other reason - not being behind, not for being KD'd multiple times, not for multiple cuts & lacerations.

Not sure.

KNowing those two, they probably wouldn't have stopped.

But I don't think about this in terms of "levels" or "rank."

Peace.

 

I never considered Vazquez a quitter.

It's stupid to compare all fighters who can't continue a particular fight.

To me it's different when a fighter like Tszyu or Freitas is not hurt but simply doesn't want to take an ass whipping because he has no heart to a guy like Vazquez was not able to breath through his nose and had to have surgery afterwards because of it.

not to mention he followed up that performance by twice stopping that same oponent. :warning:

So it shouldn't be shocking that Vazquez gets praised for being a warrior even after that first fight he couldn't continue. He proved to be a warrior before and after that fight.

opcorn:

 

So if Tszyu´s face is messed up or Freitas has been knocked down three times, it´s not okay to quit, but if you haven´t been knocked down and have a broken nose, you can quit. I´m sure it has nothing to do with Tszyu being Russian-Australian, Freitas being Breastfed-Brazilian and Vazquez being Mexican-American.

 

Tszyu face messed up?

he could have continued. Right after the fight there was nothing wrong with him. So he doesn't get a pass.

I actually had mixed feelings with Freitas in the Chico fight. But eventually I was ok with him stoping because he was getting damaged.

But my biggest beef with Freitas was the Juan Diaz fight. He just didn't show up to fight and was gassed. too bad but he wasn't in great danger. He just didn't wanna man up and go as long as he could.

Add the fact that he celebrated after quiting. :eeeek: first time I've seen that shit. :doh:

Besides Vazquez imediately went after Marquez two more times and stopped him. He proved the first fight he really was unable to continue.

Tszyu never even tried to fight Hatton again. Even though he was the heavy favorite against Hatton. opcorn:

 

Honestly i don't think they would. Both of them guys especially Corrales would fight to the death for real.

 

I think he meant Freitaz-Diaz.

I'm a Tszyu fan and to this day I'm a bit mystified by that decision.

Peace.

 

Thanks for ignoring my post competely. :flip:

 

Yes....I think you have a great point.







































:: Seriously, though.