This is just to generate some debate and to find out what you all think, so play it cool if you will. Now, I love Izzy - always have - but it seems as though the past couple of years have lead not only to his increased popularity in the fans eyes (totally justified), but also recognition as a fighter, inside those same eyes....to the point where he's now almost universalyy regarded as a P4P fighter. This is what I have a problem with. A number of fighters get slagged off for their competition. Jermain Taylor is the prime example here. Hell, for a time he was called the 160 pound Jr Middleweight champion of the world, due to his choice of undersized opponents. Well, whats so different about what Vasquez has done? He hasn't faced a 122 pounder since 2005 and not a word about it. Instead, he's been fighting guys who have campaigned as low as 115 (Choko Hernandez) and career Bantams (Gonzalez and Marquez). Vasquez has been vulnerable in a few of these fights as well, which adds greatly to his appeal, but should it add to his esteem as a fighter? Israel Vasquez is not one of the ten best fighters in the sport right now, IMO and I just can't see how his placing of unquestionable ruler of 122 is just, when he hasn't competed against one for over two years. And "WHO IS BETTER THAN RAFA MARQUEZ!!!" doesn't cut it either, because you can't answer it either way. Who has Marquez beaten, BESIDES Vasquez? Just someone answer this for me, in an intelligent, well thoughtout manner, please, because I'm interested to see where you're all coming from.
I'm coming from the same place you are, Tam. I would argue that there are at least 20 boxers who would beat Vazquez, if they were his size. He's tough as hell, and he matched up well with a Marquez who I think is on the wrong side of his prime.
I've never quite understood the p4p ranking of him (though I thought you didn't like discussing the matter). I'm sure a lot of it has to do with him having "scoreboard" over Marquez, who was near the top ten (probably outside of it before the first meeting, then entering it with his win over Vazquez in the first fight), and just an appreciation of his rivalry with Marquez. But I think his p4p status is inflated a bit.
the fact that marquez was coming into bantamweight fights at 135+lbs means he wasn't at any huge size disadvantage against vasquez. I don't consider vasquez one of the 5 best fighters in the sport as I've seen some claim, anyhow. a lot of people can't separate entertaining from talented.
Rafael Marquez was already considered a pfp fighter before the Vazquez fight. Vazquez winning the trilogy obviously did it against a top fighter not just some tough brawler. If anything Rafa was considered to be the more skilled fighter of the two. VAzquez was just able to take more of the punishment. I do think the excitement of the trilogy helped his popularity. But Vazquez and Rafa were already top champions their divisions. A win over the other guy was pretty big at 122 and more important than whatever Deleon or Caballero have done all this time.
For some reason before Vazquez, Rafael had started to lose steam in the eyes of the people, but at his peak rating, he was often listed top 5 P4P, I remember it clearly because I disagreed with it. He deserved a top 10 ranking I think, but not top 5. Personally I think Vazquez is top 10, and not just because he is entertaining. He doesn't dominate opposition like some, his fights are usually tough, but the little guy can fight, and there aren't 10 fighters I would pick over him in a hypothetical, size ratio corrected fight. He also has a decent resumé. I say he is amongst the top 10 fighters in the sport.
I think he deserves his lb4lb status for sure. Jermain Taylors hate was bullshit. Taylors comp going back to the first Hopkins fight is as good as anybodys in the sport.
I like Izzy for top 10. Over the years he has become less one-dimensional, he is never out of a fight, and he is the king of a stacked division. I like him over Marquez, over Caballero, and I think he kills Ponce.
i dont think he's one of the 10 best fighters today, but if he keeps on winning then it would be hard not to give him that merit. perhaps he can fight the winner of de leon/lopez (de leon will win imo). i dont see any of the top guys fighting caballero unless they have to.
In my mind a P4P list is something like this. Mayweather Pac Calzaghe Cotto JMM Pavlik Vazquez R Marquez Hopkins Haye Guzman Campbell Then in no kind of order Winky Shane Hatton Malignaggi Juan Diaz Wlad Cassamayor Taylor I have a hard time naming 10 fighters better then Vazquez right now and the only established person in the p4p rankings is Mayweather who is clearly number 1. The rest of the fighters you can debate about their rankings. I have Pac at number 2 and Calzaghe at number 3 and i think they both should have lost their last fight.
RJJ, you're a good poster, but Hopkins beating Calzaghe is the most preposterous thing you've ever said. Up until he bitched out, I was even rooting for hopkins, but after the first 3 rounds the only round you could have given him was round 10. Calzaghe won HANDS DOWN, 8-4 at worst.
it's too bad that no one wants to fight guzman. he would've whupped vasquez had this fight happened when it was proposed at 122 a few years ago.
Absurd. You do know the guy who lands more punches wins the round right? And you do that the guy who wins more rounds wins the fight?
Hopkins landed more punches. Joe landed more slaps. Compubox should have done a slap count for Joe. The punchstats for the fight were horrible. I sure didn't see Calzaghe land over 200 punches. Hops said himself if he landed all them punches i should look like the elephant man. His face wasn't bruised up what so ever.
I thought it was a close fight, but that Calzaghe won, but I really don't see the relevence in what Hopkins' face looked like. Hopkins isn't a fighter that marks up a lot during fights, anyways. I'm curious, though, how many points do you usually award for cuts and bruises? Do mouses earn extra points?
I think his point was that Hopkins landed the more powerful shots. But getting back to the TS's question, Vazquez>Calzaghe.
My comments on the matter: 1. Vazquez's skills are underrated. He didn't beat Marquez twice by being "tough." He needed to be durable in order to pull it off, sure, but it was through his inside fighting skills, timing and punching power, not to mention head movement, that he was able to dethrone Marquez 2. As someone already mentioned, Marquez had no business fighting at 118 for at least the last 2-3 years he fought there, so the argument that Vazquez had some sort of size advantage is wrong in my view. To me, Marquez looked at least as big as Vazquez, if not bigger. 3. Vazquez "does" need to fight Caballero in order to distinguish himself as the best at 122. Another win over Marquez won't prove anything. But given his weight class, and the fan fare surrounding their trilogy, it's understandable that given the chance, he'd make a fourth fight with Marquez. It's one of those rare chances for a bantam weight to make some real coin and he'd be an idiot not to capitalize on it. 4. Win or lose, a Vazquez vs. Caballero would be boring as hell - Caballero is a stinker of a fighter and probably belongs at 130.
Nah, kidding. But, I do think Vazquez deserves all the P4P hype. On a side note, I would rather the trilogy brothers fought someone else besides each other in their next fights.
If they fight each other again, it's probably on pay per view so the money for them is in a fourth fight. From a boxing perspective, I don't really need to see them fight again. Vazquez has been the clear winner two times in a row, IMO.
