Inspired by DMAN who Said he Thinks Many Posters WOULDN'T have Objected to a STOPPAGE when Taylor had Pavlik HURT N Round 2... So let's Put it OUT THERE for the FB Masses... Would U have OBJECTED to a Stoppage N Round 2 of Pavlik-Taylor I or Do U Think a Stoppage would/could B JUSTIFIED???... REED:dunno:
Same thing said in the other thread. Pavlik was only down once, and was back up before smoger even started counting. He was tagged again, but did the right thing and held on and was steady again and firing back by the end of the round. I disagree with anyone who says that would have been even a maginally acceptable stoppage.
That would have been one of the worst stoppages in a MW title fight ever. Pavlik was rocked, but nowhere near being defeated.
Knowing what we know as far as how the fight turned out it's pretty tough to say exactly what my response would've been. It definitely would've been viewed by most as premature, but there would've been plenty of people willing to say, "even if they hadn't stopped it, Taylor would've gotten him evenutally." I think that's one of the worst and most harmful ways we as fans can react to a bad stoppage - to justify it by saying the ending was inevitable. Way too many people are willing to draw such conclusions in order to justify early stoppages.
dsimon writes: Double L's post is true. What you have to look at is not the man going down. It actually benefitts somoene to take a knee, or even, if you lost the round on a knock down, to minimize damage to your faculties. Take a long count, thats one reason it is there. What you can't do is to stop fighting and/or defending. At no time during the second round of the Taylor Pavlik fight did either guy stop fighting. In theory if the 3 knockdown rule is not in effect I should be able to go down as often as i want. One of my biggest critiscisms of boxing is that fighters are not taught/coached to be smart this way. In the old days a guy would go down easier, it was part of a strategy to get back in the mix. What should drive a ref to do a stoppage should not have anything to do with knockdowns.... When a guy is not fighting and not defending, whether he is KO'ed or not the fight should be stopped. Therefore the fact that Pavlik was down was in my mind totally irrelevant regarding the fight.
I would have been okay for several reasons. 1. It would have been far from the worst stoppage ever. 2. Pavlik was wobbled badly and floored. He was also flung across the ring one more time. His nose and mouth were bleeding freely. 3. Smoger doesn't do early stoppages. So when he stops you its cos you got stopped. 4. If it had ended in the 2nd, there would have been no happy ending in the 7th for people to justify letting the fight go on. Obviously this is a brain twister but you get the point. Pavlik would have been stopped in a fight he never got going in.
so in your mind did Taylor legitimately win the fight, only to have Pavlik come back and take it from him?
dsimon writes: Let me address each point seperately. 1) I have to agree with this point. Though it woud have been the mark of an amateurish ref, it would not have been the worse. 2) All these things you describe are part of the sport. There is no immediate danger from profuse bleeding that cannot be evaluated by a doc in the corner. When a fighter gets knocked down, or wobbled they suffer the consequences in the scoring of the fight. Why should these actions in themselves constitute a reason to stop the fight? For example, if you watched the second Bell Mormack fight Bell was wobbled half the fight, but he was fighting back every step of the way. 3) I think with Smogger he has enough confidance to feel like he can watch a possible stoppage carefully without overreacting. I generally am one to err on the side of caution but I trust Smoger.... If I was in there I would trust his judgement ::. For example if Ortho was batting me around the ring just prior to me opening up a can o kick ass on em I know Steve woud let me be.:: 4) Thats why I think you have to really adhere to the criteria for a stoppage. The guy is not defending and/or fighting back. Also there are other safeguards built into the system. The 3 ko rule when in effect limits the way a fighter can use a long count to regain his strength. Basically instead of premature stoppages fighters should be taught to take long counts and to have a strategy to last the round in a fight where they are comprimised.... It is part of being a good fighter. I actually think some fighters are afraid to take a long count because they think the ref will be looking to stop the fight.
REED! This thread doesn't answer the question.. the fact is that the question can never truly be answered!! If the fight HAD been stopped, it would be evenly split between those that thought it was OK, and those that OBJECTED. The fact is that it wasn't, and hindsight is 20/20, thus the non stoppage looks ALOT better. Things to consider: -When Pavlik got knocked down Lewis screamed "THAT's IT!!", and he didn't seem TOO far off at the time... -There was constant talk of Smoger having the propensity for "allowing fights to continue" during the barrage -Watch between 1:09 and 1:03 of the 2nd round, during Taylor's follow up barrage. The fact is that MANY refs would potentially have stopped it during this frame, and we have seen far worse stoppages. Try to forget about what happens AFTER, and just watch this section of the fight... would the results, without that 20/20 hindsight, really be the same as with this poll ???
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/pavlik+taylor/video/x34dd7_jermain-taylor-vs-kelly-pavlik-12_sport http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/pavlik+taylor/video/x34wgv_jermain-taylor-vs-kelly-pavlik-22 if someone wants to watch it again.
Nigel Benn WAS legitimately stopped in London against McClellan when a journalist helped him off his back. He was also badly hurt enough to warrant a stoppage, per se, on its own. But the rules were bent out of shape a little bit, Benn got his minute off and the rest is history. As someone has said, its not really an "answerable" question. Alls well that ends well, and hindisght really is 20/20 Pearl Harbour made America.....but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have stopped it from happening if they could. At the time, it sucked pretty bad. I could win the Lottery and balloon into a 800lb diabetic and die. Just before my death, not winning the lottery would seem to have been Okay. Most people try to answer this question without first utterly ridding their mind of the image of Taylor kTFO. For me, Pavlik being down, busted up and flung across the ring would have been a premature but liveable with stoppage.
He also screamed something about Youngstown Ohio. Lewis is prone to screaming. You make good points D Man...Smoger once stood over a fallen Lou Savarese and went:- 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Come on buddy you can do it. 7. 8 9. Savarese gets up. What Smoger calls a legit stoppage and what the Humane Society of America calls legit stoppages are worlds apart. Its an intriguing question, from a philosophical point of view, but had that fight been stopped its a fair bet that Smoger would have received only minimal criticism. Especially from Kellerman.
It would be bullshit.Pavlik was screwing around which is why he was knocked down in the first place,once he got serious...gameover for Taylor
I would have objected since I would have thought that Pavlik could have come back and stopped Taylor in seven
I think it would have been a premature stoppage, but I wouldn't have been absolutely appalled by it. As other's have noted, there have been a lot, lot worse than that would have been. I think a lot should be made of the context of the fight, as well as the actually punch, follow-up, reaction of both fighters etc. I think a stoppage would have been more acceptable if this fight was for some sort of regional or domestic bauble, but it was for the MW Championship of the World, in which case fights shouldn't be stopped simply because a guy goes down. When a world title is on the line, a referee should always give as much benefit of the doubt as he can to a hurt fighter (notwithstanding serious injuries, obviously)
Pavlik was just wobbly. It's not like he was taking a lot of punishment. It would've been a horrible stoppage.
