dsimon writes: :dunno:. It happens. It was obvious beyond any shadow of a doubt. Calzighe fought a wonderful fight by the way and I think his punches looked immensely better than in the Hopkins fight. His hand speed and his power were much better. He beat on Roy unlike slapping at Bernard. Calzighe has done what he can to establish his legacy and kudos to him for doing this. I don't mind eating crow but I do feel it is a bit much to ask fans to be able to ascertain when a guy will turn over... Roy turned over. He could not have beat anyone last night. He could not pull the trigger. He could scarecely through more punches than Shannon Briggs frankly. When this happens it should be duly noted that what people had to be able to do was predict that Roy was indeed shot. Kudos to those who predicted this like Neil....Good job Neil! :bears:
I stll believe that the Roy that fought Tito in January would have beaten the Calzaghe that fought Hopkins in April. The problem was, Roy was markedly slower and Calzaghe was sharper.
It was the same Roy that beat Tito with relative ease. But there is a big difference between Calzaghe and Tito. Roy would still beat chumps like Hanshaw and prince Jabba. Shit, schedule him to fight one of them next week and he would still beat them. Everyone knew Jones was washed up before last night, he still had enough to beat bums like Tito and Hanshaw, but not Joe. All this was obvious dsimon, so yes you do need to eat crow. Jones didn't suddenly become shot, many fans (including myself) have known it for quite some time.
this fight was always a question of how shot Roy was.....he wasn't suddenly gonna turn back the clock by 10 years, but i'd say he looked no more shot than he did vs Tarver or Johnson....better if anything .....yet, despite this being SO clear....a lot of people still managed to convince themselves that Roy had enough left
dsimon writes: I did eat crow and I so much as said I was picking Jones for the fun of it... there is a record of everything I said including that Calzighe would probably wind up winning, me donnybrooking and finally going with my heart.... but you are missing my point Mex... I have never had a problem eating crow BTW. I do have a problem with people being illogical. The only people who should be allowed to smirk are those like Neil who so much as said that "JOnes is obviously shot."
Exactly. Where Roy fans went wrong was when they convinced themselves the Tito fight was in the least bit meaningful.
That's what I said dsimon. Did you not catch wind of my conversations with Kenneth at the time? We were arguing about it a for a while. I was saying Jones is clearly shot, he was getting quite irate, saying Jones had aged and changed his style accordingly, I was saying no, he's shot etc etc. The thing is, it's testament to how good Jones used to be, that even a shot Jones could beat chumps like Tito and Hanshaw. But it was so fucking obvious that he had no chance against the likes of Calzaghe at this stage, arguably the best pound for pound fighter in the world. Nard might be older than Jones, but he is far less shot. Calzaghe is late thirties too, but he is obviously far less shot than Jones too. I guess my point is dsimon, you're acting like it's some revelation that Jones is shot. This is something that's been patently fucking obvious for a good while now. What's illogical is thinking Jones could somehow magically "turn back the clock".
dsimon writes: I don't agree at all. In a way asking how shot a fighter is is like asking how pregnant a girl is... essentially fighting at the elite level when a fighter is shot... they are SHOT! Maybe in teh heavyweight division a fighter can get by because speed is not at a premium but shot is shot. Jones had no more chance of finding Calzighe through his gifts of speed and reflexes than Holmes did of finding Tyson when Holmes made a go of it for a few rounds using his skills. Shot is shot. The fact that Jones did well against Tito is immaterial and yeah Tarver probably helped diminish him considerably.
dsimon writes: Well then my quibble is not with you Mex. I am acting like 20 20 hindsight is a wonderful thing... If Jones had been on last night than he would not be shot. If his speed had been there and his reflexes, if he had been able to fight in the middle of the ring... then he would have looked good against Tito, recovered against Tarver and his spell of Ko's and done something remarkable. So no it was not obvious. Roy could have not been shot last night. Fighters are fighting longer now guys like Nard are not shot... Roy could have shown that he is not shot last night.
dsimon writes: :: That is decidedly Joe's opinion. Tito was himself shot in all probability... a better litmust test for Jones was Glencoffe. Up until the Tarver fight Jones could keep anyone off of him with his speed and athletic ability and by fighting them in the middle of the ring.
dsimon writes: Who me? I am not a Jones groupie. I think he had great athletic ability and would say he was one of the better fighters but JOnes technical ability nevr developed past a point where he could fight without being able to overwhelm the guy with speed. Jones is a great but imo falls short of guys who had it all. I would say Ali was a similar styled progigy who fought better comp and did more & technically developed more of a repetroire than Jones ever did. But Joned physical ability was exceptional
Would something like this sufficed: http://www.fightbeat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26414&page=4 Last night was, for me at least, extremely sad to watch. I have always loved watching Roy- a truly great fighter who used to make very good fighters look very foolish and is a P4P match for almost anyone in history. To watch Joe, a great fighter himself but a level below Jones in his pomp, literally beat on Roy for nine rounds was just horrible. I hoped Jones had more money that to have needed to put himself through that. Frankly, he's lucky that Calzaghe himself is delined and has never been a real power puncher, otherwise Roj might have been seriously hurt. Such a sad end to a glorious fighter. MTF
dsimon writes: I think Joe was a gentleman. He did not attack Jone's eye, he let Jones tie him up and he let Jones finish on his feet when he could have easily KO'ed him. I think his showboating is just his way of keeping at the top of his game and he is more than entitled. Joe looked really good to me, much better than he did against Hops. Regarding Jones cult following: yeah ridiculous! :: I do think that now-a-days some guys do occasionally suprise and have a second coming. Again if Jines had been able we would be talking about how he looked his old self against Felix yada yada. :: Finally I think his corner should have thrown the towel in a while ago. He was done around the 9th round and it was obvious.
At the time, and in reflection, it seems clear to me at least that Joe stopped trying to really hurt Jones after the 7th round- after the cut opened up you could see Joe was actually quite concerned that he might hurt Roy...and it is clear that Joe has a lot iof time and respect for RJJ. MTF
So shot fighters can't age and change their style accordingly? :dunno: It's not like they are braindead zombies... Deep down Roy has to be aware of the changes his body has gone through. And he fights differently though he doesn't have much of a choice since some abilities are gone. No one WANTS to change a good working style...
Sure they do, but his opinion was that Jones WASN'T shot, and that had just slowed down a bit and changed his style. He even said it was "ludricrous" to suggest that Jones was shot.
Well that's probably just semantics... Slowed down... in every department... visible since the first Tarver fight... THAT inevitably (is that a word?) changed his style. And you do nothing wrong imo to call that past his prime or shot as u wanna... Basically - i agree with you Mex! :hammert:
Nonsense. Any post-Ruiz Roy would have lost to Calzaghe. He wasn't the same after moving up to Heavyweight.
