soliciting opinions about the Heavy weight division

dsimon writes:

I want to start doing some writing again for the site and for some other projects, the family has commanded a bit of attention lately as we make some plans for the future.... Posting here helps me keep my writer's flame kindled and I love you guys for it.... Even during the toughest times I can rattle off a few posts and lately, that has proved precious to me with what we (my family) has to deal with. I know a lot of people consider posting a waste of time, but it keeps me writing which I enjoy and probably need to do for my sanity.::

Anyhow guys I have a simple question for everyone about the heavy weight division. This topic is brought about from the fact that I am feeling alienated from the heavies, like I just don't know them anymore. Alienation is expensive also, my poor judgement about Oleg cost me fifty large to Caligula....

but more than just the expense, regarding the division, I had a nightmare that best describes how I feel about the heavy weight division: I am one of those parents who never sees their kid while working in this dream, the teacher says "your kid is the biggest drug dealer in the school, have a talk with him." The teacher has no face.... I go into the room and my kid is not mine. I scream because I don't know this kid in front of me...."

I admit I really have no judgement about the heavies anymore. I am Galileo in front of the church elders.... trying to convince myself that they are wrong and I am sane! I am confused and hurt because I, unlike Mex and quite a few of you, live for the Heavies!!! Thats my damn division!!! I have become lost, alienated... they are all of Lok's lumbering Germans, with no faces, at this point :dunno: they might as well be martians.

I am beginning to think that a human being has a biological limit that is affecting the division. Thats my opinion. When I became 250 pounds I found that I could not move properly anymore... I am 240 now and, I can still feel a big difference. Cupey and Jaws have seen me... I am not really a fatass, I do have extra weight and what I feel with my own body when I train, and what I see is a bunch of guys who cannot maintain a decent pace because they are too big. Oleg and Peter looked so slow to me that it put things in perspective and flabbergasted me. I realized that I hit the bag and do cardio but that my pace is really affected by a line in the sand: 230 pounds is no problem, 240 though gets really dicey.... Those hills start to feel like hills, etc.

Whats your opinion? Me I think Haye should be able to clean out more than a few Germans. I think that any weight for a boxer over 250 is too big. At that weight we are not physically able yet, to throw a lot of punches in a ring for an extended length of time. Lewis was right on the line and thats what saved him. Klitschko fatigues early as well, which is probably why he fights so cautiously. And like an NFL player the extra weight does not seem to affect certain activities. I can hot the bag as long as when I was 200 pounds. But when mobility becomes an issue the weight makes itself known, even riding the exerscize bike I feel it...Opinions? I might write a piece about this weight difference and want to solicit some feedback from you guys.

 

Good post Brother Dsimon

I'm of the opinion as well that over a certain size, Humans are just not as graceful,efficient, or effective

While I rag on Wlad, I do think that he is impressive in that he fights more like a middleweight, his punches are nice and he moves well for being so big. The problem is, with him as well and Lemmon they don't have that killer instint that IMO is important to add excitment and draw fans to the division. Maybe his chin is not good enough? not sure..

I know personally I am hovering around 200, actually about 195 right now and me personally.. at 5'9 I feel much better around 180 or so, even when I have been 200 and VERY lean, I felt heavier and just more labored.

I think a guy like Haye could possibly do very well, he is a big guy 6'3 or so and 220 or so... but these 6'5 250 guys IMO are just too big to look good or move real well.

 

dsimon writes:

Yeah I think that when we train and feel extra weight it puts things in perspective. I actually thought for a while that I was in worse shape than I was. Hills here never bothered me and I was getting winded (about a year ago). Then I realized that I walk really fast compared to most people. But an extra ten pounds fundamentally changed my mobility. It never has affected bag work, but it affects my other cardio. I had never felt that winded before. Seeing how this affected me I naturally looked at the bigger guys in the heavyweight division.

I think Wlad is safety first because he is also scared that against a mobile smaller guy he might get winded. Thats what happended with brewster.

 

To Offer a DIFFERING View on SIZE, Look @ LeBron James...Sure, he's Not a FIGHTER, but he IS a 6'8, 250+ Lb Man who's INCREDIBLY ATHLETIC...

MOBILE, SWIFT, NIMBLE, GRACEFUL...

This Cat is Not Only 1 of the FASTER Players on the Court, he's 1 of the HIGHER JUMPERS as Well...Also, LeBron Performs w/a GREAT DEAL of Energy...A High "Motor" as they Say...He's Faaaaaaar from a Lazy, Lumbering Sort of Big Man, UNlike how Most of Today's Heavyweight Prizefighters Seem to B....

A PRIME Shaquille O'Neal was 7'2 & about 310-320 lbs...To a Much Lesser Degree, he had Similar Athletic Ability as Bron...


REED

 

I do agree that heavyweights now are too big to look good, as LOK correctly put it.

Too bad they aare too big for the better looking fighters to beat.

 

::


LOK you are as lean as a sausage at 5'9 and 200 pounds... :nono:

 

Honestly, I'm really pretty lean..

not as I was a while back.. 5'9 and at one point 205 lbs and 5% bf measured multiple ways (calipers and water scale)

right now I'm around 195 or so.. not sure of my BF% but it is not a whole lot.. I have never been without abs...

 

:: Yep, as I said before, Wlad can think himself lucky basketball players aint putting on the gloves,...

 

Really??

i mean judging from just your face in the tiny pic or the melon video i'd never believed that and 5'9 and 205 with 5% BF would look pretty much like that

and i don't see a round face there... ::

 

that video I did was a while back when I was not in the gym due to injuries. like I said I WAS 5%, I was a trainer as a profession and a gym rat, but even now I'd be suprised if I'm over 10-13% I just never have held a lot of fat on my body

 

dsimon writes:

You make a good point Reed. Football players play in spurts, but hoops is consistant cardio. And yeah there are some big guys in the NBA who run up and down consistantly. Basketball players have to be some of the best trained athletes. Didn't Jones used to hoop a lot? even before fights! :eeeek:

 

The heavyweights are suffering because LeBron James is playing basketball?

 

dsimon writes:

Wrong. You stick to that idea stubbornely and there is no proof what-so-ever. The division is weak right now. Lennox Lewis was a great champion but his size was ony one factor. The thing is that Lewis could throw punches an entire fight. He had a lot more stamina thatn Wlad does thats a fact. You can see Wlad frustrated and fatigued when he fought Brock. And even Lewis, great as he was had ocasional problems with good smaller guys like Mohawk man and Mercer.

Again I repeat there is no proof that the size of an average heavy has increased and that they are better fighters. Most people in the know feel as though none of the guys today would last in a strong division. By contrast there is no question that football players today are in a different class as athletes.

 

So what are YOU trying to say then?

 

Not Bron Necessarily, but because Athletes of Bron's SIZE & CALIBER Choose Other Sporting Alternatives to Boxing...



REED

 

I don't think thats the case, but I do understand it's a common held opinion.

'Athletes' don't make sucessful fighters, IMO. I'm trying to remember when an 'athlete' was considered a top flight heavyweight for any period of time. At any period.

 

:: Let those 'would-be' heavyweight champions out on the basketball court, take a few deep shots to the guts from professional fighters, and see how quickly thier "superior cardio's" dip,..

 

U WOULDN'T Consider Cassius Clay an "Athlete"???:dunno: ...

Obviously it Takes MORE than just Athletic Ability, but if an Athlete of Bron's Caliber Took Up Boxing EARLY Enough & Got some GOOD Teaching, REED Could See a Guy of that Ilk being a DOMINANT Heavy...

The PROBLEM is, Athletes like Derrick Jefferson or Michael Grant Take Up Boxing AFTER their Other Sporting Options DIDN'T Work Out...& their LACK of Schooling was APPARENT...

REED

 

german excuses... :blobbox: ::

 

dsimon writes:

Absolutely true. That is the proverbial fly in the ointment, cog in the wheel. :: Guys like Michael Grant come and go.... there used to be a similar problem in the NFL. The big thing for a while was to find a sprinter who could hold a football and this sprinter would be the new premier class of wide reciever in the NFL. It never happened, as sprinter after sprinter showed that there is more to a wide reciever than a mad dash off the line. ::

 

See, the problem I see with the heavyweights is the push for size and strength, instead of simple natural BOXING talent. The traditional trainers of elite heavies have moved on and we've had an influx of 'nu-skool' trainers and conditioners come in who seem to focus on training the next big thing off of an athletics field in high school, instead of finding one in a gym as a kid.

The problem with guys like Jefferson and Grant, are that they were athletes and never had the mentality of a fighter. I don't think you can train that. It's there or it isn't and more often than not, those with that mentality metriculate to boxing anyway.

My point is; fighters are born, not made, IMO.

 

But the thing is, MOST of your ELITE Level Wide Recievers & Defensive Backs RAN TRACK @ Some Point N their Lives...Whether it B High School or College...

Deion Sanders Ran Track for Florida State...Randy Moss ran Track N High School (& Shot Hoop & Played Center Field in Baseball)...

The Renaldo Nehemiah Experiment FAILED, but Willie Gault WASN'T a Bad Football Player...

REED

 

Nup, there was obviously a whole generation of football and basketball players better than he was, what do you think lead him to boxing in the first place?..:laughing:

 

I see your point in reference to track and football....but I don't ever remember most heavyweight champions being high school basketball, football, or track stars. Ever.

So why should it now?

 

That's what REED Meant by Saying Guys Need to Start EARLY Enough...

To SOME Degree Sure, Fighters R "Born", but REED Thinks Part of that is LEARNED Behavior as Well...It's EASIER to Get a Child or Early Teen Acclimated to Getting Clocked N his GRILL than it is Some Late Teens or Early 20's Guy...

A Child or Early Teen DOESN'T have the EGO of a Late Teen or Early 20ish Cat...On that Note, it's EASIER to Convince the Younger Kid to Come Back to the Gym the Next Day, after Taking an Ass Whipping...

Even "Born" Fighters had to Work THRU that Learning Curve...Then 1 Day it just CLICKED...



REED

 

If U've SEEN Cassius Clay Fight, it Should B OBVIOUS He was a Good Athlete, KAU...

& Considering he Began Boxing @ Age 12, REED Isn't Even Sure that Clay EVER Pursued Football or Basketball...


REED

 

So the parent forces the bawling child to stay in the bull pen, to keep getting clocked until he acclimatizes? :: "WAAAAAAAH I wanna play basketball daddyyyyyy waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!" "Shut up yer fucken little shit, no son ah' mines gunna grow up ta bounce balls like a fucken faggot!".. :laughing: Reed please,.... Born fighters are most likely drawn towards, and have a natural propensity to persuit combat sports, probably after being king of the schoolyard, then king of the gym, through the amatuer ranks, and so on. I doubt they're forced to acclimatise like you've indicated ^..

 

Kelly Pavlik is a PERFECT Example of what REED is Talking about...

He had 2 Older Brothers that CONSISTENTLY Beat the Shit Out of him Growing Up...He'd Cry to his Old Man, but Pops DIDN'T Wanna Hear that Shit...When Pavlik 1st Went to the Gym, Same Shit Happened...

His Trainer, Jack Loew, FREQUENTLY Says Pavlik was Perhaps the LEAST Likely to B Successful, Amongst his Stable of Fighters...Until it "Clicked" N the Boxing Ring, Kelly Pavlik was NEVER the "King" of Anything....

The Deal is, Pavlik Took Up Boxing @ an EARLY ENOUGH Age where his Ego WASN'T Damaged by a Few Ass Whippings Here & There...



REED

 

:nono: But you see, had pops disciplined his brothers for being cruel to junior, Pavlik would have relished his new solitary freedom by bouncing a basketball alone, with both brothers restrained, the boredom of lonliness would have lead him to obsessively develop his ball skills, and pretty soon he would have gone on to become Michael Jordan, making squillions more, and having both the distinction of being the best player on the courts, and an entitlement to the prestigeous "w'be" world heavyweight championship, held by various American basketball players today by default,.. ...:doh: if only pops wasn't so dettached Reed, junior would have been better off, :doh: he could have been dancing with Marvin the Marsian.

Wlad's lucky the path of Nascar drivers didn't skew a different way.

 

this is retarted... it's notlike Ali tryed to play ball and failed, he started boxing when he wanted to get someone that stole his bicycle::