How does the Liston that "wiped his ass" with Floyd Patterson fair against to slower, hittable and less mobile (but still very good) Ali that beat George Foreman? Liston gives Ali HELL..but Ali stops him late.
Excellent question. I think Liston stops him, though with great difficulty. In the end, I think Liston's greater accuracy will tell in this fight. A big part of Ali's ability to dictate the distance at which their first actual fight in 64 took place was predicated on his movement, not his jab, & I honestly feel minus the legspeed, Ali loses the jab battle. With that, my bet is Liston is effective in digging to the body, & he just never really was the air-swinger Foreman came to be. Ali, though, was battle-hardened, fiercely resourceful & infinitely clever. If any great in division history as past their prime as this could find a way around Liston, he'd be the one, no question. Liston TKO6.
Wow. I respect your views as usual Ramonza, but I'm shocked that you would pick ANYONE to stop a Pre-Manila Muhammad Ali. Ali's chin and determination were TOO GOOD to be stopped, even by Liston, IMO.
I'm not surprised it will cause consternation --- if something never happened, it's twice as tough to envision it ever happening. I was thinking, can Ali actively avoid Liston's punches? I don't think so. Can he smother them? I think he can...to some degree, & with some success. Can he determine the fight's range with his jab? A big, controversial call here, but I suspect it will turn out to be no. We all agree, I think, the likeness between Liston & Foreman has often been over-stated. It is very difficult to beat Liston if you're going to take a lot of punishment in the process. Very difficult. While no one ever achieved what I'm predicting here, no one beat Liston (or even heard the final bell) being as generally hittable as Ali was between 1973-75, either. Sly, you mentioned Liston would put Ali through definite hell --- what exactly is it you think gives Ali so much trouble, but he definitely, definitely triumphs over? If something hasn't happened, it's very difficult to imagine it. However, I do not think Ali was quite unstoppable. I would agree that he was, all things considered, as tough to stop as any Heavyweight who ever drew breath, but man alive, this is one of the best experts at stopping people dead in their tracks the division ever saw. Anyone caught flat-footed during his prime (roughly 1958-61 or so) went...no exceptions. He cleaned house in a fairly deep division, with only the odd less-than-spectacular victory.
I actually agree with Ramonza. After 3 or 4 rounds Ali becomes slow enough for Liston to catch up with, who was an underratedly accurate and proficient picker of punches as well as a hitter. And that being the case, it's a horrendous, horrendous beating. This would be fairly horrid to watch I think. Ali's footspeed in 64 was just something else, but you could see late in the 3rd when he tired a bit after his early round rally what happened when those feet slowed down just a little. I won't use the 4th and 5th as examples since Ali's eyes were bothering him.
I dont see anyone ever stopping Ali, especially THAT Ali... when a guy fights through the type of shots he routinely fought through and wins time and again, to me he's earned the distinction of not being stopped in these MMs... would any of you pick Hagler to get stopped? LaPorte? I sure hope not Ali overcame greater fighters than Liston, bigger hitters than Liston and men with ten times as much fortitude... A man like Liston could NEVER beat Muhammad Ali, he lacks the will to do so I am frankly shocked by Ramonza's pick and those who agree with it
This version of Ali was slower and past his prime but this is guy that destroyed Foreman not the shell of a fighter left after Manila. Another factor that I think would give Liston fits is that sneaky right hand that Ali would drop over his jab. It would hurt Liston and force him to reset his attacks. Plus this Ali would taunt and get into Liston's head just like the younger version did. I think Ali still had fast enough hands, the toughness and enough mobility to take this fight. Add to that extra grit and some roughhouse tactics the older Ali gained along the way and I think it's enough to get him a win.
