disagree completely Frazier is not Floyd Patterson... waaaay stronger, much more durable, and Liston fought NOTHING LIKE George Foreman... he also was not THAT big... he'd have 2 inches in height at best on Frazier and about 10 pounds... Patterson was a SMALL heavyweight with the chin of an accountant and he was totally mortified in the face of Liston.. Frazier was FAR more bold this is a VERY close fight
Liston I think is the second most overrated heavyweight in history, only behind Quitali. I laugh when people say he coulda beaten prime Foreman and prime Tyson. I think either one of those guys would have bombed Sonny out inside of 6. Frazier stops him late. Probably around the 10th.
Agreed..in that Frazier was much stronger, bigger, and more durable than Patterson. Liston is not bombing him out that early. However, Liston was bigger, stronger and more powerful than Oscar Bonavena, who managed to drop Frazier twice. Liston's size, strength and power is close to Foreman's...but he lacks the intensity (IMO) of the latter. I also see a close fight: Liston in 7 rounds or less, Frazier Late. My gut tells me Frazier will survive the early shellacking and take Liston's heart late.
Frazier is most definitely not Patterson, but Liston --- it has to be said --- beat Patterson with room to spare. Plenty of it. Of course, you'll get no argument from me Frazier was more than a little better than Patterson. I don't see this fight as a class issue --- the divide there is minimal, if at all existent. Stylistically, I just see this as a horrible matching for Frazier. First of all, Frazier's game is predicated partly on negotiating his opponents' jab --- you can see him doing this almost by rote against any number of his rivals, from Mathis, to Ellis, to Ali. Right there, Frazier is in trouble. I know people like to go on about the Liston jab a bit, but there's a reason for that. When you couple its brute force with the range of the punch (& Liston was surprisingly accurate on his better days), getting past it becomes a very tall order for any man. Next, there is the strength factor. Liston wasn't especially tall, but there's no mistaking he was, in many ways, a very big, powerful figure. He would not struggle, IMO, to forcibly place Frazier in the position he wished. I agree with you that Liston has less in common with Foreman (stylistically) than is often reported, but there are some similarities, & they are key. Chief amongst them is a quick start. While not quite as explosive out of the blocks as Foreman, Liston nevertheless made a habit of early-round KOs & an up-tempo assault from the opening bell. He was a little more patient & precise than Foreman, & not as clumsy (Foreman actually misses many of his attempted punches in the first fight with Frazier), but still very aggressive early. I see Liston landing more accurately against Frazier than Foreman did, & without giving up much (if any) ground in terms of the force of the blows. Liston is close to hitting on-par with Foreman. Certainly, common opponents were of that view. One of the more interesting sticking points in this discussion, IMO, is how Liston would react to Frazier's power. Liston had a damn good chin --- it wasn't absolute granite, but it was plenty tough --- & I've never been a subscriber to the fallacy that Liston lacked a heart. No, Sir. He was a tough nut to crack. Foreman seemed to shake off the few clean shots Frazier landed, & I have to think Liston is at least a decent chance to do the same. I just cannot see a way for Frazier to either absorb Liston's power, or evade the incoming. Of course, Frazier was such a great fighter, & so bitterly-determined, I for one hesitate to count him out of any fight with another great.
I love reading your posts Ramonza, very descriptive and structured well. You remind me of a prime Donnybrook...
A previous member, I take it. As always, Sly, you & your exchanges are among the several who keep me (& the rest, I'm quite sure) returning to this site. Would love to see a little more action in this particular sub-forum, too!
I see your point, Ramonza, but Frazier was able to negate Ali's jab (which was long like Liston's) and it was FAR FASTER... Liston's jab was heavy and straight but it was not fast furthermore, Bonavena didn't trouble Frazier by jabbing, he troubled him by pushing him back, shoving him like Foreman did... Liston, despite his mean persona, never fought tht way I also think people give way too much credit to Bonavena for the Frazier fights... the first, Frazier was still pretty inexperienced and he climbed off the deck and won the fight cleanly... in the second fight, Frazier attacked without pause form start to finish and Bonavena was unable to duplicate the success he had found in the first match and essentially was a willing, tough target in a fight Frazier won with room to spare I dont see much similarity, stylewise, between Bonavena and Liston
Jave to agree with you about the scrutiny Frazier gets being over the top in regards to that first bout with Bonavena. It was Frazier's, what, tenth pro fight? Eleventh? Something like that --- Bonavena was already on the cusp of being a recognised title contender. A lesser fighter (& certainly not even a poor one by comparison) would've been fodder for that Bonavena. Decisioning Bonavena is a hell of a lot more impressive than getting dropped by Sonny Banks or snatching a touch-&-go decision from Doug Jones, which is what Ali was doing at a comparable stage of his career. CDogg, obviously, you expect Frazier to have a good shot at surviving Liston's early onslaught, & heavy hands. How well, given that, do you think Liston would react to Frazier's power? Not necessarily his work-rate, but the power itself? IMO, Liston had a pretty damn sturdy chin. I could only see Frazier beating him via attrition, despite his formidable left hook.
I agree... Liston could take a punch for sure and it would be his will that Frazier would have to extract from him, and I agree that would need to be over the long haul, by attrition... finishing Frazier is a feat only one truly unique man was ever able to do, and even then it took six knockdowns, and even THEN, the man got up
...& up, & up, & up! I am not one who believes Liston had a heart easily taken, or that he was a bully awaiting exposure, but virtually no one can go down the stretch with Frazier & have their hand raised, Liston included. He has to end it early.
bad take on liston here. Sorry for bumping an old post, I was just curious of peoples thoughts on Liston on here. He seems to be pretty underrated imo. I agree Tyson beats him although Listons style is kind of good for Cus D'amato trained fighters and his uppercuts are serious punches. Tysons hand speed is the deciding factor for me though on that fight but liston is the superior technician no doubt. I mean, the more I think about it, one good uppercut from Liston could put Mike in a bad headspace. Lewis tamed him in the 2nd round with uppercuts albeit Tyson was at 5% compared to his prime. Foreman and Liston sparred a lot of rounds together. I gotta research what Foreman says about that.
Agreed. Liston gets underrated because of the Ali fights. There's a reason he was avoided and kept away from the title for so long. Frazier probably wins but he would walk through fire to do it.
He gave lengthy reasoning to his takes and was very enthusiastic about the history of the sport, which is good. However, he also had some very unique perspectives (such as picking Dempsey to KO Tyson and ranking Duran #6 all-time in lightweight). Also, he was a full blown racist. And not a racist troll either, but he actually believed in racial theories
I see. Picking Dempsey over Tyson could be a bit of racism kicking in? Although he seems pretty balanced in terms of boxing analysis. So he was an old white boomer I'm guessing. Probably heavily into the far right scene today. Was he a Mexican? Hes got some type of mexican username.
First, having opinions you disagree with should not have been a strike against him. The fact you view it as such is more a reflection of your own issues as a poster. Second, I don't recall him being racist and I certainly wouldn't take your word for it given you apparently have little tolerance for different opinions.
First, I never said having different opinions was wrong, quite the opposite. To think I hold different opinions against him is a reflection of you as a poster. However, if a guy reaches completely different conclusions compared to others, it may tell you something about his analysis. Just the same way people call me ignorant cos I have some unique views. Second, I don't think him picking Dempsey over Tyson was racially motivated, as he also picked Joe Gans to whip Duran, Whitaker and everybody. However, calling Pacific Islanders a lazy, gutless race is racism, and that is not an opinion either.
I'm gonna side with Ugo here. I remember him being pretty goddamn out there, bigoted, and biased as Hell in favor of pre-1920s fighters. While I have a reputation for loving the old school, I have limits. Ranking Duran as low as 6 all time at lightweight is just categorically asinine. It's beyond "oh, thats just his opinion." It's like claiming Ali isn't a top 5 heavyweight. Certain boxing views should just be consensus.
But question isn't whether or not you think his opinions were reasonable. Question is, were they grounds for chasing him away? And I and others would say certainly not.
I don't remember the details, but if he was harming forum culture, then maybe. We've had many idiots in the past, buy most were relatively harmless.
I think he said that pacific islander have no ambition, not that they were a lazy gutless race. Not excusing him, but there was much worse racist things that were said on this forum. And i only recall him saying it once.
