Biggest issues for Tyson will be keeping it together upstairs --- I really believe he could lose this fight before the first bell --- &, on the physical side, negotiating Liston's freight train-piston for a jab & penetrating the real estate guarded by his unusual range. For Liston, the gravest problems lie in Tyson's plainly superior speed, & his more organised, precise punches in combination. If I had to say who's more likely to solve the other, my money would be on Liston, in about four or five rounds. They both had quite sturdy chins, but neither would stand upto repeated hammerings from the others' truly herculean power. Tyson was better when he had a man hurt in getting a roll-on --- his punches were faster & more fluid than Liston's, making it more difficult to turn the tide when Tyson did injure you, but Liston was the best finisher of his generation, & could fight at any range, unlike Tyson. More intriguing than the fight itself would be the multi-city press promotions, & interactions outside the ring between the two. My suspicion is Liston gets the better of Tyson there.
Tyson, at his best, knew how to negotiate the jab. In fact, Tyson invited the jab because more often than not, it gave him the opportunity he needed to step in with his arsenal and rip off combinations. I'm not here to discredit or minimize Liston's accomplishments, or his ability as a fighter, but I think he'd be as befuddled by Tyson as he was by Ali.
Tyson did exhibit problems with a good, sound jab. None which troubled him, to whatever extent, were in Liston's league. Stylistically, Patterson was similar to Tyson, yet his head movement --- no worse than Tyson, as he was a smaller, nimbler fighter --- afforded him no quarter. Of course, Patterson was no Tyson, but the styles are comparable. If I had to guess, I'd bet on Tyson failing to negotiate Liston's jab, & that right there, against a left hand as good as Liston's, puts a gargantuan mountain in Tyson's path to climb. Not a single fighter between 1953 & 1970 who couldn't nullify Liston's jab got the better of him. Who is the closest thing each man has faced to one another, anyway? Patterson would be the nearest cross-reference for Liston, but what about Tyson? Who most keenly-resembled Liston among his rivals?
Probably Pinklon Thomas. And just as Patterson is a poor approximation of Tyson, so too is Thomas of Liston. But that's what we have.
battle of the bullies... interesting I could really see this either way... I agree with Ramonza that Liston's jab (which was really like pretty much any other heavyweight's right hand) definitely poses a different problem for Tyson than he ever would have faced... by the same token, Tyson is like Patterson with a vastly superior chin and vastly superior power and Liston would have a LOT of trouble with Tyson's hand speed combined with that big punch... I could see Liston's jab making tyson leery and the left hook (Liston's best power punch) causing him to decrease his workrate a whole bunch and maybe he closes up shop mentally and his will is broken... at the same time Liston could also be suceptible to such things... perhaps struck by several lightning quick bombs from Tyson, it is Liston who decides he doesnt want to fight any more... its really a 50/50 possibility to me, either guy can become emboldened, forcing the other man to become meek... it is the nature of the two men involved... a fascinating matchup with all sorts of possible outcomes
Leaving the psychology of the bout aside (potentially, a deciding factor, in my view) it may simply come down to what people like more in deliverance of each man's hammerblows --- Liston's extreme range, or Tyson's super-sonic swiftness.
A long way short, in both men's cases, at any rate. I think you could make something of the way they were built as fighters, in addition to the Reach vs. Speed angle, as well. Tyson was put together using an extremely rigid & well-researched program by Cus D'Amato & Kevin Rooney, also involving Teddy Atlas at one time. It was all precision clockwork & pre-determined fightplans in that Tyson corner. He was a programmed weapon. By contrast, Willie Reddish, by all accounts, seemed happy to allow his charge to simply, "wing it" at times, even in some of the higher-stakes bouts Liston participated in. I can't remember the precise quote, but Reddish once remarked how he never felt Liston would work optimally under the manner of regimented fightplan which was a hallmark of the early Tyson campaign, & never sought to actively command Liston between rounds. I actually think this might be better for Liston, head-to-head, with Tyson. The first thing a hurt fighter (& let's face it, at least one & very possibly both are getting visibly injured in this one) needs is a sense for improvising, & nothing stifles that more than training them into a Boxing zombie. No question in my mind, though, that even in D'Amato's absence, Tyson had the better corner.
A trivial little aside --- the only two men ever to win the championship at this weight in the first round. Both of their foes were bested before the opening bell.
I rewatched Liston-Patterson just out of interest. Have to say, in terms of what he offered Liston, Patterson's an even more pathetic facsimilie of Tyson than Bruno is of Liston. I would favour Tyson to press home his enormous speed advantage& I wouldn't be surprised if this was a short one actually. If Liston can survive the first two rounds without having been utterly ravaged, you'd favour him to start frustrating Tyson with the jab and follow ups more the longer it went. But i think Tyson KO 2, actually.
I always say.. the douglas fight and Lemmon fights really have made Tyson under-rated he fell apart... in his life prior to those fights.. but coming up.. he was a PHENOM and I think he would have more than likely KO'd liston Tyson was just too fast.. people talked about his power but really it was his speed of hand and head movement that to me was incredible
Yup and Liston was really quite SLOW. That's what leads me to think Tyson might well win the firefight early.
If Tyson did win the fight, his speed would probably be the reason. Liston can off-set Tyson's swiftness with his simply huge advantages in straight-punching & sheer wingspan, though. He also had the best possible weapon to pull Tyson up coming in...close to the best left jab (& one of the meanest left hooks off the back of it) in division history. I would still favour Liston to win both the physical & mental battle, but the physical one at least threatens to be a great contest. I do think Liston beats Tyson in the pre-fight psychology pretty handily. Both of these guys (but especially Liston) are quite severely under-estimated in their toughness, too.
With respect, I think that's dismissing the fight with Douglas a little too willingly. The truth of the matter is Liston is from a different time --- he could never have been a phenom in his own time, but that doesn't mean he wasn't just as effective. I'd take Liston's pre-title run over Tyson's anyday, in fact. Beat better opposition, & did so just as decisively. He just didn't have the marketing capacity on many levels to be the super-star Tyson was. That much, & I don't know how Douglas would ever have managed to best Liston, even one with marriage & legal troubles, as flimsy as those tired Tyson excuses are.
.. Tyson was a total mess man... people can say "flimsy excuses" and all but pre douglas. he was not even training! he was drinking in japan.. the fame got to his head.. and it's kinda understandable if you look at his age and his upbringing.. it was so much and he just thought he was king of the world and didn't need to train.. Douglas fought a great fight too!
Holy shit. That's right. Tyson was fast. :: Seriously, though, it's a good point. Tyson's quickness was a key component of his game. Fighters as fast as he was generally reserve their speed for counter-punching, or pot-shotting. Not Tyson. He was quick. But he was also aggressive.
I think Mike had more heart then Liston also. Mike never quit on his stool, and he never stayed on the canvas from a bullshit punch. I think this fight is a shootout, and considering Mike was MUCH faster, better two fisted power, better defense, and better chin... I'm thinking he's the one that wins the shootout.
Totally agreed. Boxing seems to be the only sport (or walk of life) where going off the rails can't just be accepted as genuine. Nobody looks at George Best struggling for games at bloody Cork Celtic or wherever on earth he was aged 26 odd and says 'ah just just goes to show - he was never really that good, overrated all along that boy'.
You can do better than judge Liston's heart on two suspect fights. How about the broken jaw he endured for four rounds with not even a dozen fights to his name? Liston was clobbered for the remaining stanzas. I would also dispute that Tyson had any clear edge in either chin or two-fisted power. Both had plenty of each. That's a close split, IMO. Tyson's heart is somewhat under-rated, for mine, but Liston was a tough, tough man in his own right. This fight may be decided by recuperative power, as I expect both men to get hit hard & hit early.
It's nothing many fighters before him haven't dealt with going into bouts (& dealt with better). There is just simply nothing especially unique about Tyson's troubles in Boxing history, yet he is treated as some as being the only fighter to face such adversities. I think it papers over some of his limitations, myself.
