Two types of power?

Right bear with me here, because even Im pretty sure this is just a load of shit, but....

I was watching Louis yesterday and just marveling at HOW HARD that fucker hit. Men flying over the ring, men lifted off of their feet. Then I went on Youtube and watched some clips of Foreman for comparison and noticed that although the EFFECTS were similar there was little else in common. You could see Louis' power rising out of his legs in a kinetic wave like a tsunami and EXPLODING out the end of his fist - so much so that he often slightly lifted off his feet like he couldn't contain the energy passing through his body. Foreman on the other hand just seemed like he was swinging a big mallet around. One was explosive the other literally looked heavy handed.

Now, the obvious answer is that it's just the difference between speed and strength (Power = force x speed) and to an extent it clearly is, but to my mind other punchers complicate the issue. Hamed for instance was lightning fast but he was much more 'heavy handed' than 'explosive'. Corrales & Tua had comparitively slow hands but both seemed much more 'explosive' than heavy handed. One type seems to thud and one seems to detonate, and it doesn't seem to be solely down to hand speed. I know these descriptions are vague, I'm hoping somebody is gonna recognize something in what I'm saying and help me out here. Am I seeing things that aren't there or is there something to this....is explosive punching technically correct (ie learned) punching and heavy handedness just natural power? Or am I talking absolute shite? Don't be shy!:tease:

 

Hamed lightning fast?

I agree that hamed was heavy handed rather than explosive, but he was never that fast.

He had the illusion of being fast because of his silly, over the top, mickey mouse style, and hitting from different angles, moving around like a chimp etc.

The actual velocity of his punches were not that quick. Chico's counter left hook was quicker than anything hamed threw.

I agree with your point though, there is a huge difference.

The heavy handed variety seem to have a sort of strength and solidity to their punches, but not a natural explosion of energy.

Foreman and lewis, both very heavy handed fighters. Tyson and Louis, whilst physically not as strong as the former 2, more than made up for it with an incredibly natural explosion of energy, and brilliant punching technique.

Pavlik for example, is the heavy handed variety, while say... Judah, it's more a pure explosion of energy.

 

This isn't 100% of the explaination (technique, timing, etc aren't factored in). But in pure physics, KE explains how much energy any object possesses, and this energy can greatly differ on the two things you described above.

Increasing your mass can increase your punching power, so bigger guys will naturally be able to throw bigger punches, all things being equal. You double your mass, you double the energy. I would say guys like Foreman who are dense men without much speed fall into this category.

Velocity is the real key though. For every increase in velocity you get a quadruple return in energy. Guys like Zab Judah, Mayweather, Roy Jones, Hearns, etc who aren't extremely dense or big, but have excellent hand speed fall into this category.

If you really paid attention in your physics, and math classes, you could also use:


The above takes into account angular velocity, and moments of inertia. This would probably give a better picture than the linear equation above.

 

well there's definitely not "one" type of power. not sure you can reduce it down to "two" though.

you have Titoesque power, Mirandaesque power, RJJesque power and then you have Peteresque power, which itself is different than Klitskchoesque power.

And then you have JLCesque power.

I think it's a very elusive concept to try to classify. Some of it's due to accuracy, some of it hand-speed, some of it timing, some of it heavy-handedness, some of it leverage - the possibilities seem boundless as to why certain fighters manage to K others TFO.

The other interesting thing to discuss is why certain fighters seemingly have no power. I think there was a thread earlier as to why in the hell Juan Diaz can't seem to hurt anyone. He certainly seems to put passion and flare into his punches, and yet, they seem like minor annoyances to his opponents, at least early in the rounds.

Or PBF. He has blazing hand-speed and accuracy, and yet, only a mighty tired and mentally beaten fighter is likely to be stopped by him at this point.

 

watch some of his earlier fights. he was incredibly fast.

 

Joony, I think you're forgetting that I'm English. We had hamed shoved in our faces since pretty early in his career. I've seen most of his pro fights.

His raw handspeed was never that good, not even comparable to people like roy, shane, zab, etc

 

i've seen most of his fights from the beginning of his career and i thought his speed regressed as he moved up in weight.

he should've stayed at 122.

early in his career, i thought his foot speed was incredible. perhaps guys like zab and roy had quicker handspeed, but hamed's athleticism and footwork was something else.

 

What about Pac-Power where you can actually drop someone, sometimes 3 times per round....yet can't actually knock them out. opcorn:

 

I think he just made a more concerted effort to move around like a monkey on PCP, I never saw any sort of athleticism to marvel at.

Show me a video on youtube that you think is a good example of hamed's speed and athleticism, because I just don't see it, even at 122.

 

MWS has hate in his heart

 

vs Steve Robinson, '95

 

::

 

MWS is right though. Haveeb showed "speed" against bums who were slower and older.

It's funny he looked slow once he moved up in weight and fought better competition.

 

Can you go into the 'rotation' issue more, please? Interesting that you would bring that up, because explosive punching does seem to come from full body rotation whereas heavy handedness seems to be a function of the 'weight' of the shots.

 

Handsize also has an effect. I can't help but think that tendon strength is also a great factor in allowing superior body English to be able to be placed on certain shots!:dunno:

 

That's that WTF power. Where people get hit and are like WTF just happened while their sitting on the ground. opcorn:

But seriously, there have been a couple guys who fought Pac that say that he's not a particularly hard puncher (at least in the traditional Tommy Hearns sense of the word), he just has incredibly fast hands and explosive legs so he can drop that straight left when you think you're outa range or before you can even get those hands up.

Look at how many times Pac has caught a guy backing up causing them to hit the canvas or bounce around out of range then within a split second, jump in to throw that straight left.

IMO you can't just classify power into a couple classes. There's too many variables. Explosiveness, and heavy handedness are the big factors for raw power, but timing, speed, or the ability to catch a guy at a weird angle or when he leasts expects it can multiply that power and turn a mediocre puncher to a GREAT puncher.

 

Bingo. That sums it up. :bears:

Add to that technique - how well you transfer weight, follow through on punches, turn your wrist/forearm over and "snap" the punch.

That, for example, is what made Corrales' counter left hook so destructive...it was a short, very torqued punch that he snapped beautifully and turned over very quickly.

Speed, angles, timing can help with "explosive" power.....pure strength, density, weight and size can help with what alot of people refer to as "thudding" power.

Foreman, to me, has always been scary. ::

The guy simply was a very relaxed puncher (which btw, can be a big factor as well). But he mostly used his waist for rotation and punched through his shoulder and arm to the fist. He often looked sloppy when he punched, almost as if he was letting his arm "drop."

But the dude was so freakishly strong and dense and relaxed...that that swivel from the waist and his natural power/density/size made up for lack of technique in other areas.

Imagine if Big George punched from the balls of his feet up through the legs and punched 'through' the target - like the way Morales or Marquez throw their right hand? :eeeek:

Peace.

 

The effectiveness of a punch can be measured by the amount of energy transfer during the collision that occurs. Having quick hands certainly helps but there's more to it. If you just flick your hand out without moving the rest of your body, you know that it won't be very "powerful."

The reason you move your body is to create something like a chain reaction. It starts by planting your feet, getting your leg muscles involved, then your hips, and finally all of that energy is transferred to your fist as you swing your arm around.

A lot behavior in sports works this way, like taking a jump shot, throwing a ball, swinging a baseball bat, or kicking a soccer ball. It's all about transferring energy in an efficient manner.

Then, there's the opponent. We all know that a punch you don't see hurts a lot, even if it's not a hard punch. That's because you can tense your muscles if you see a punch coming. Your muscles can then absorb the energy better. If you don't see the punch, that energy gets transferred throughout your body and it ends up affecting your legs.

 

And if he had the speed and defensive moves of Mayweather he would have been pretty good too.:tease:

Midgets always have the better body coordination and technique

 

You pretty much summed up what woulda happenened with that last line there. It woulda been peace out for whoever got cranked with that.

 

Man you're one of the first guys I've read say this. I was saying the shit since boxing.com because I never saw the speed that everyone was talking about. I would ask where was the speed and get attacked by everyone, so then I'd just drop it.

My next question was where was the talent, because honestly I never saw that either. Hamed had to be one of the few fighters in history to get high accolades and a top P4P ranking even though he never proved himself against top opposition.

 

:bears: :bears:

Join my club.

People were fooled by the hype, his stupid ring entrances, and his hyper monkey style.

He was not particularly fast or talented. Unorthodox with decent power? Yes, but not fast and talented or skilled.

His punches came from unorthodox angles, but if you look at them, they weren't fast at all, they didn't just snap out of nowhere like Pacman's straight left for example. They were actually relatively telegraphed, he would load up on them, but would throw them like a spazz, from strange angles, and somehow this retarded flashy style fooled people into thinking he was fast :dunno:

 

:nono: Hopkins, Kessler, Tszyu, Wlad, Foster, Hearns, Lewis, Tyson, Charles...take your pick.

They all had the same technique with the right hand that I am referring to.

Ditto for the left hook - Big George's was wide and ponderous but devastating...imagine throwing it like DLH, Trinidad, Cotto, Frazier, Tyson, Tua, Morrison...

Shame for making this about "giants vs. midgets" once again - and completely missing the point in the process.

Peace.

 

:: ::

I don't think he was Camacho/Judah/Meldrick/Mosley quick, but Naz WAS quick-handed....to your point, he was made to seem even faster given his unorthodox angles and his irregular rhythm and leaps/lunges.

He's neither as good nor as bad as made out to be by either faction.

Peace.

 

Will you ever get of that fence?

 

I remember someone (Ali maybe?) describing the difference between Joe Frazier's power and George Foreman's power. He said something like getting hit by Frazier was like getting hit by a car going 80 MPH.

And getting hit by Foreman was like getting hit by a bus going 50 MPH.

Different, but both very powerful.

I'll have to look up the exact quote.


*** Edit ***

TFK

 

:: :flip: ::

 

Exactly. Cool quote.

 

I agree. Even his later fights. That style needs lots of speed to work.

 

You two should get a room. ::

There's a reason no one else said it.