Which champions were virtually talentless?

I'm talking about the guy who pretty much became a champ because of management exclusively. Perhaps, this person may have had a solid chin to withstand a ko, therefore, exposing them as frauds.

Antonio Margarito is tops on my list. He has a chin..... and....... and......
He's slow afoot and has slow hands; he's not a great or even good counter puncher because of his slow ass hands; he's plodding.. on and on.....

The only guy I can follow up with is Primo Carnera.

 

I thought Baldomir was the only possible answer...... then I remembered that Carlos Maussa once won a belt. Therefore.... Maussa is the correct answer.

God Vivian Harris sucked!

 

OK, Margarito's resume, with world champions bracketed

Martinez (WC)
Kamau
Randall (WC)
Antonio Diaz
6 heads Lewis (WC)
Kermit Cintron x2 (WC)
Kyvelos (WC)
Lujan
Clottey (WC)
Cotto (WC)

Razor close losses to Williams and Santos (WC, WC)

You might say other things account for his success.....but that he's purely a managerial creation? Total nonsense.

 

Agreed

 

Good post.

The types of fighters you want to look for are guys who won a vacant belt against a scrub. All 4 sanctioning bodies do this, but the ones that I notice most are the IBF examples because they strip champions so much and they let scrub usa fighters get title shots all the time.

 

Kid Gavilan, Sandy Saddler.

 

He had a huge amount of success given that he basically just had a chin and stamina and determination, yes.

I think it's pretty fucking obvious where most of that success came from though, and imo his entire career is more or less null and void.

By the way there was nothing razor close about his loss to Tall Paul. He barely started fighting until round 8 or 9. Paul won 8 rounds to 4.

 

You think nobody checked his wraps in any of those fights? I personally find that difficult to believe. But regardless, that isn't the point in the context of this thread.

2 of the 3 cards vs Williams were 7-5, btw. 1 round swing to a majority draw.

 

You know, I was going to take that into consideration. Instead, all I can think about are the times that he was not caught loading his gloves. It may sound like a crock of crap, but he was caught. It's not like it's out of the realm of possibility that he could have had loaded gloves for several of his high profile fights.

Since he was indeed caught, I'm going to take the liberty and apply it to all of the fighters you have mentioned; therefore, I stand by what I initially said. Am I more wrong than you are right or vice versa?

I'm not going to act like he had never been caught loading or it's impossible he could have been doing it long before getting caught.

 

Gavilan recovered from a 9-count vs Basilio to beat Basilio. That requires some degree of Talent, especially when one chronicles the difficulties Ray Robinson had with the same Basilio.

For me, Primo Carnera, who really just had size and brute strength, Valuev would go into the same bracket albeit he was somewhat more polished. Massive size and strength advantages with a veneer of boxing instruction. Joe Hipp wasn't all that flash either.

 

All I know is you'd have to be a certified fool to think the first time he wrapped his gloves was against old arse Mosley, or even Cotto.

People don't just start doing that most of the way through a career.

Regardless of the cards, that fight wasn't particularly close. Plasterito came on strong late in the fight, but he won no more than 4 rounds.

 

I think James Page had little to no talent/ability, except he was able to trim down to 147 somehow, when in fact he had the frame of a middleweight.

Valuev has no talent or ability.

How about that dude who got knocked out by Simms? Rivera? He was pretty crappy. Don King fighter.

 

Page had a good jab but not much more. He did indeed have a massive frame. He fought a guy called Sam Garr on the undercard of Holyfield vs Lewis, I believe, and laboured to a 12 round win. His near-miss with little Freddie Pendleton was shockingly bad.

 

Page had legit power in his left hook. But other than that, he was pretty mediocre/shitty.

His fight with Lopez was a helluva good scrap though. A fight which fuckin Lopez had NO business losing, if only he had let his hands go more.

Jose Riveria is the 2nd guy you're refering to. Yeah, he was pretty shitty as a belt holder. He made Travis Simms look like Martinez in that fight.

 

Page was blessed with power, if nothing else.

I heard he was a real scumbag though, well before he started robbing banks.

 

Seriously. How the fuck did Lopez, a legitimately talented contender lose to Page? A guy whose next significant fight was a one-sided beating at the hands of Andrew Lewis?

 

There is no way Kyvelos was a champion. Otherwise he is as good an answer as about 100 other guys, half of them being from Universum.

 

Page-Lopez was arguably the best WW fight of the 90s, up there with Davis-Breland (Brown-Blocker was very good too).

 

Hut Hut's my boy 'n all, but honestly, he is sporting at least a semi for Plasterito.

 

Garr is a decent gut-check/journeyman fighter, he was victim of one of the worst robberies of all time against Matt Vanda on FNF a while back iirc..

 

Al Singer

 

He was killed in a bar fight. This makes him a legend of the sport.

 

IYO. There's no more basis for that opinion than the one that says the Cotto fight (which was the first fight where an opponent sustained unusual facial injuries was the first). And your point of view assumes that his wraps weren't checked in any of the previous fights he wasn't caught doing it. The more past fights you add into that assumption the longer the odds of that become.

Personally I suspect Cotto was the first or maybe 1 fight before that. But the bottom line and my ultimate opinion is that we don't know and we'll never know and arguing about it is pointless.

Fine. But 1 round swing = Majority Draw. So it was razor close on the cards.

Your constant need to add condescending insults to your points is just making you come over as a knob jockey, incidentally. We just got rid of Free Ike last year, we don't need a replacement.

 

Not in my family.

 

I foresee a visit in your future from a man brandishing an unlit cigar and toting a Fedora. He will lecture you on the error of your ways. Any man who fights Canzoneri to a draw and extracts a heavy sweat from McClarnin before dying in a bar brawl is kip in my book. :nono:

 

Well then let me be the first to say, fuck Al Singer and Bert Sugar too

 

:bow::bow::bow:

I have a TV recording I hope to get onto youtube called "Babyface Goes To Hollywood". In it, James McLarnin describes Al Singer as a great fighter. Of course, he knocked Singer out in 1 round or so.....now I know James lied to me.

 

Michael Grant was never a champion, so doesn't qualify....but I feel compelled to mention his name anyway....

 

Maussa tops this list. I would have beaten than bum. Vivian Harris is a clown for losing to him (sorry Jake)

 

Crazy talk.