Here's an ambitious project! :bearsrime vs Prime, ie each fighter at their absolute best. I decide what their prime year is since I started the thread! Just post your pick and I'll go through them & post the aggregate league table. Hellallot of picking here I realize (28 picks!), but the results will be interesting. Take 5 minutes and post 'em! Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali KO 10) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Holmes UD 15) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Tyson SD 15) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston KO 5) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali SD15) Foreman vs Lewis (Lewis KO 3) Tyson vs Frazier (Frazier TKO 13) Holyfield vs Liston (Holyfield UD 15) ------ Ali-Lewis (Lewis UD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes-UD 15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson KO 8) Holyfield-Frazier (Frazier Sd 15) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 13) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 6) Holmes-Frazier (Frazier SD 15) Lewis-Liston (Lewis UD 15) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Foreman KO 6) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis KO 4) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Draw) Foreman-Liston (Foreman KO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Tyson KO 7) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali Tko 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Tyson SD 15) Lewis-Holyfield (Draw)
I'm just going to go through this quickly so don't take any pick to seriously. I'm also going to change it to 12 rounds, as i don't want to also think "mythically" what differences 15 rounds would make. (if any) Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali UD) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Holmes UD) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Tyson SD) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston KO 8) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali SD) Foreman vs Lewis (Foreman KO 6) Tyson vs Frazier (Tyson KO 2) Holyfield vs Liston (Holyfield UD) ------ Ali-Lewis (Ali SD) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson UD) Holyfield-Frazier (Holyfield SD) - (probably the best matchup out of all) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 11) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 10) Holmes-Frazier (Holmes UD) Lewis-Liston (Lewis UD) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD) Foreman-Tyson (Foreman KO 6) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis KO 4) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD) --------- Ali-Frazier (Ali UD) Foreman-Liston (Liston UD) Tyson-Lewis (Tyson KO 5) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali Tko 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Holmes UD) Lewis-Holyfield (Lewis UD)
Correct picks here Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali KO 9) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Lewis UD 15) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Holyfield TKO 12) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston KO 6) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali UD12) Foreman vs Lewis (Lewis KO 8) Tyson vs Frazier (Tyson KO2) Holyfield vs Liston (TKO 10) ------ Ali-Lewis (Lewis UD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes-UD 15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson TKO5) Holyfield-Frazier (Holyfield UD) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 11) Foreman-Holyfield (Holyfield UD) Holmes-Frazier (Holmes UD 15) Lewis-Liston (Lewis TKO6) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Tyson UD) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis UD) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD ) --------- Ali-Frazier (Ali UD) Foreman-Liston (Foreman KO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Lewis KO1) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali TKO7) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Holmes UD) Lewis-Holyfield (Lewis UD)
Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali TKO 7) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Lewis SD 15) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Holyfield TKO 12) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston UD 15) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali SD15) Foreman vs Lewis (Foreman KO6) Tyson vs Frazier (Frazier TKO 13) Holyfield vs Liston (Holyfield UD 15) ------ Ali-Lewis (Lewis SD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes-UD 15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson KO 8) Holyfield-Frazier (Frazier Sd 15) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 9) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 10) Holmes-Frazier (Frazier UD 15) Lewis-Liston (Lewis KO 14) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Foreman KO 4) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis KO 6) Holmes-Liston (Holmes SD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Draw) Foreman-Liston (Foreman TKO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Lewis KO 10) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali Tko 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) Lewis-Holyfield (Lewis UD15)
Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) Foreman TKO12 Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) Holmes UD 15 Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) Tyson SD Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) Frazier KO4 ------ Ali vs Holmes Holmes MD Foreman vs Lewis Foreman TKO8 Tyson vs Frazier Frazier TKO 13 Holyfield vs Liston Holyfield UD ------ Ali-Lewis Lewis TKO9 Foreman-Holmes Holmes UD Tyson-Liston Tyson KO 5 Holyfield-Frazier Holyfield UD -------- Ali-Tyson Ali UD Foreman-Holyfield Foreman UD Holmes-Frazier Holmes UD Lewis-Liston Lewis KO2 Will predict below later on: head hurts ---------------------------------------------------------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Foreman KO 6) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis KO 4) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Draw) Foreman-Liston (Foreman KO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Tyson KO 7) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali Tko 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Tyson SD 15) Lewis-Holyfield (Draw)
I know it's MM and we all are entitled to our opinion. but I must admit your Foreman TKO12 Ali result got a giggle out of me. 70's George would be hard pressed to have the strength left to hold his hands up by the 12th round, much less actually stop a prime version of the fighter who KOed him in eight rounds. Prime Foreman was gassed out after the 6th round against a 30-something Ali, I can't imagine him doing better against a prime Ali. This pick makes no sense. And don't even get me started on your Lewis-Ali prediction...I wouldn't be totally against someone who picked Lewis to win by decision (although that would not be my pick), but I just don't see Ali getting stopped. Help me out here...how many fighters of Ali's calilber has Lewis stopped?
Give us yours my man....agree with you on the Foreman-Ali pick mind, that raised my eyebrows as well. But there have been stranger results in boxing history & Im sure Joe has his reason.
Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali TKO 8) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Holmes SD 15) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Holyfield TKO 13) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston UD 15) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali UD15) Foreman vs Lewis (Foreman KO5) Tyson vs Frazier (Frazier TKO 14) Holyfield vs Liston (Draw 15) ------ Ali-Lewis (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes- TKO 12) Tyson-Liston (Liston KO 11) Holyfield-Frazier (Frazier SD 15) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 11 ) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 7) Holmes-Frazier (Frazier UD 15) Lewis-Liston (Lewis SD 15) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman -Tyson (Foreman KO 4) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis TKO 10) Holmes-Liston (Holmes SD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Liston (Liston TKO 10) Tyson-Lewis (Lewis UD 15) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Holmes UD 15 ) Lewis-Holyfield (Lewis UD 15)
There aint no way in hell Frazier beats Tyson. NONE! Mike is JUST as much a stylistic nightmare for Joe as Foreman was. Frazier doesnt have the style, or chin to have survived Tyson. Joe wouldnt have seen round 5.
Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali TKO 7) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Holmes UD 15) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Holyfield TKO 12) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston UD 15) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Ali SD 15) Foreman vs Lewis (Foreman KO 6) Tyson vs Frazier (Frazier TKO 13) Holyfield vs Liston (Holyfield UD 15) ------ Ali-Lewis (Lewis SD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson KO 8) Holyfield-Frazier (Frazier SD 15) -------- Ali-Tyson (Ali TKO 9) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 10) Holmes-Frazier (Holmes UD 15) Lewis-Liston (Lewis KO 14) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Foreman TKO 7) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis TKO 8) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Draw) Foreman-Liston (Foreman TKO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Lewis KO 10) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali TKO 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) Lewis-Holyfield (Holyfield SD 15)
Results are in. 2 points for a win, 1 point a draw 1. Muhammed Ali 80 points (38 wins, 4 draws 14 KOs) 2. Larry Holmes 72 points (36 wins, 1 KO) 3. Lennox Lewis 67 points (30 wins 1 draw, 15 KOs) 4. George Foreman 66 points (30 wins, 29 KOs) 5. Mike Tyson 32 points (16 wins, 9 KOs) 6. Evander Holyfield 32 points (15 wins 2 draws, 5 KOs) 7. Joe Frazier 30 points (13 wins 4 draws, 6 KOs) 8. Sonny Liston 17 points (8 wins 1 draw, 4 KOs) That looks pretty perfect to me. Collectively we are wise!:bears:
In terms of head to head? yes he should. Holyfield is a bad match for him, same with Foreman, but Tyson would obliterate Frazier, anyone saying otherwise is just wrong. Tyson is a bigger, faster, harder punching, better skilled version of Frazier. He would beat Frazier 1000 out of 1000 times.
Ali (67) vs Foreman (73) (Ali UD) Holmes (80) vs Lewis (00) (Lewis UD) Tyson (88) vs Holyfield (92) (Holyfield UD) Frazier (71) vs Liston (59) (Liston KO 7) ------ Ali vs Holmes (Holmes TKO 11) Foreman vs Lewis (Lewis UD) Tyson vs Frazier (Tyson KO 3) Holyfield vs Liston (Holyfield UD 15) ------ Ali-Lewis (Lewis UD 15) Foreman-Holmes (Holmes-UD 15) Tyson-Liston (Tyson KO 4) Holyfield-Frazier (Holyfield UD) -------- Ali-Tyson (Tyson TKO 8) Foreman-Holyfield (Foreman KO 6) Holmes-Frazier (Holmes TKO 9) Lewis-Liston (Lewis KO 7) -------- Ali-Holyfield (Ali UD 15) Foreman-Tyson (Old George Foreman TKO 11)(Young George..Tyson KO 4) Lewis-Frazier (Lewis KO 4) Holmes-Liston (Holmes UD 15) --------- Ali-Frazier (Draw) Foreman-Liston (Foreman KO 5) Tyson-Lewis (Lennox UD) Holyfield-Holmes (Holmes UD 15) ------ Ali-Liston (Ali Tko 6) Foreman-Frazier (Foreman KO 2) Tyson-Holmes (Tyson KO 9) Lewis-Holyfield (Lennox UD)[/quote]
I would agree with that for sure. I'd also favor al of these guys over Joe Louis, except Frazier and maybe Liston.
Yeah, I deliberately left off the old timers because then it just turns into a debate over eras rather than fighters.
Holyfield is more than just a bad match for him... he was BETTER Tyson lacked heart, he was mentally unstable He could have never done what Frazier did against Ali... never in a million years And he is really not like Frazier at all... they were both black and 5'11, thats about it Tyson was a combo puncher who's best weapon was a right uppercut... despite his size and punch, he was never much of an inside fighter Frazier was all about the hook, and outside of George Foreman who could have been invented by scientists trying to make a guy who would beat Frazier, no one could stop him from landing it Every other fighter he faced knew it was coming and they still couldn't stop it And Frazier was one of the bravest human beings to ever fight, and he was psycholgically as tough as you can get. Ali could never get him off of his game, nobody else can say that, not even Kenny Norton To me it is debateable that Tyson could beat Frazier head to head What is definitley not debateable is that Frazier was a greater fighter, and his win over Ali in the most anticipated fight with the most pressure in history trumps anything Tyson ever accomplished by a long shot
