Do you think Pac uses PEDs?

this sums it up:bears::bears:

if you are clean.. taking tests is not a big deal

 

Exactly!

 

agREED...REED & Others have Approached him about it...


REED:hammert:

 

Suppose Pacquiao agrees to the tests, is clean, and loses the fight.

The same people who are questioning Pacquiao now will question him then.

In that sense, you can see why Pacquiao is very angry, regardless of how he plans to deal with the situation. Whether or not PBF is acting within his rights by making the demand, there's no doubt that Pacquiao and his repuation will suffer, and potentially, to no fault of his own.

 

That's true.

Assume that Pacquiao IS clean.

Say he ends up agreeing to the tests, and loses a decision to Mayweather. Say he doesn't look great too, and is clearly outboxed.

To some, it's the expected result, but for others even that turn of events would create some doubt, as if he must have been roiding all along, and without roids he's nothing special

I said it about the day after this story emerged, that Pacquiao is pretty much in a lose lose situation.

 

That basically sums up the skeptic argument as outlined in several threads in the last few days. Hard to see how this could be mistaken for Pac-bashing or floyd-nuthugging.

 

Bullshit...

Considering WHO the Opponent Is, @ WORST, Pac would Lose by DECISION, which is what Most Boxing Fans EXPECT Anyways...The ONLY Way Pac would B Questioned Post-Fight is if he was DESTROYED by Floyd in the Early Rounds, which is an IMPOSSIBILITY Given Floyd's Manner of Fighting....

Pac SHOULDN'T Win the Fight, WOULDN'T B Favored to Win the Fight AND Would REGAIN just about All of his Steadily DECLINING Credibility by Simply Taking & PASSING Random Tests....

It's a WIN-WIN Scenario for him, Long Term...

REED:hammert:

 

I'm not sure how you can make that claim when Pacquiao was already suspected of using PEDs, even before PBF made his demands.

 

I disagree, the same people that are labelling him guilty now (well not all of them, but many of them) would no doubt see the suspicious side of him losing to Floyd, especially if it was in 1 sided fashion.

That's one of the thoughts that occured to me after this story broke. He really is in a lose lose situation. Well, not really, because if he agrees to the tests and WINS, then he'll look extra good, not if he agrees and loses though.

You know what people are like anyway REED. People like drama and accusations etc.

If Pacquiao agrees to these tests and loses to Floyd, I have absolutely no doubt there'll be a plethora of people saying "See, I told you! He was obviously on the roids before!".

 

Agreed! :hammert:

 

BULLSHIT, Brother Mex...

U just agREED w/REED the Other Day about Pac's Rep ONLY Being Harmed if he was an EARLY KO Victim of Floyd's...Floyd Mayweather IS NOT a "Puncher"...Floyd Mayweather DOES NOT Go for the Kill when he has a Hurt Opponent in Front of Him...Floyd Mayweather IS NOT an "Aggressive" Fighter, Per Se...So the Idea of him KO'ing Pac is COMICAL....

Pac was FAVORED to LOSE by Decision PRIOR to All of this so HOW Could a Decision Loss HURT him Now???...Seriously Man, You PAC Lovers R Bending Over BACKWARDS, Contorting Yourselfs in EVERY POSSIBLE Fashion, just to Make this BENEFICIAL For Pac...All the While, THE SIMPLEST, EASIEST Way to "Deal" w/this is by TAKING & PASSING Random Drug Testing...@ THIS Point, if Pac TRUELY IS Clean, he'd SWALLOW his Fucking Pride & Put an END to what HAS to B the WORST Week of his Prizefighting Life...w/Out Question, Pacquiao WINS by PASSING Random Drug Testing, Even if the Floyd Fight DOESN'T Go as he Hopes....

Outlander's Post is THE Most SPOT-ON Piece that's Been on this Site...& REED has even had a Slightly HEATED Exchange w/Him about Floyd in the Past, so he's CLEARLY IMPARTIAL Here....

Time to WAKE UP, Brother...

REED:hammert:

 

I swear it's true.

Of course many people expect him to lose by decision, and even those who do, well like I said people like drama don't they?

Boxing fans aren't the most even minded, logical bunch either. I think a lot of boxing fans are actually pretty sharp compared to other sports fans, but they are quick to judge, and knee jerk reactions are rife in boxing.

I have no doubt at all that even a clear decision loss would be (somewhat) detrimental to Pacquiao, in that just losing clearly would be some indication that he must have been on roids before, to look so unbeatable.

If he wins obviously he wins, there's not much anyone can say other than "He must be still roiding" :: - but I think it would take at least a very close decision loss for people NOT to say "See I told you, he was on roids before".

 

If Pac Takes & PASSES Random Testing, THE ONLY Way he Comes Out Looking BAD is if Floyd STOPS him Early...But the Thing is, Floyd Mayweather HASN'T had a KO EARLIER than the 6th Round Since PRIOR to the Year 2000...

He AIN'T KO'ing Manny Pacquiao OR Manny PEDquiao...



REED:nono:

 

So NOW YOU'RE Playing the "He was ALREADY Suspected" Card, yet U're PISSY about Floyd CALLING him On It???...Is there a MORE OPENLY BIASED Poster @ Fightbeat???....



REED::

 

:::: at the first point.

And to the second point, you don't know that. And that's the most important part of any of this speculation. We don't know if he is roiding or not. All I know is however shoddy the existing boxing tests are, some fighters still fail them, including a fighter that was trained by Roach - Toney. And those same tests, Pacquiao has never failed.

I also know that his name has never been linked to steroids.

He is innocent until proven guilty, and although he MAY well be juicing his balls off, I can fully understand why he might refuse even being completely innocent.

To be honest the one thing that makes me suspicious are the bullshit excuses, which I find far more suspicious that an outright refusal.

Suspicion is one thing, facts are another, and so far we only have some suspicion and hunches. The facts are Manny is officially roid free until proven otherwise.

 

I agree it's extremely unlikely Floyd KO's him, unless Manny somehow gets incredibly wild and reckless.

But I would be almost certain that a plethora of people on message boards and the odd scribe would use even a somewhat 1 sided decision loss as ammo that Pacquiao was roiding before.

 

The day we have to take the word of Victor Conte, arguably the most notorious liar in sports history, as gospel for anything is a sad day indeed, frankly. And if he was that much of a brilliant cheat, he wouldn't have been busted, would he? Anyway, what does Conte know about Manny? Was he involved directly? Does he know something we don't?

How do you know any of this? The answer, of course, is that you do not. You are speculating from a cynical point of view. No-one here knows if this is correct or otherwise. Indeed, you might well be right. But you cannot possibly know that you are and to state the position as one of fact is complete bullshit.

If the present tests can be improved, they should be improved. I made that much clear in my previous post.

Why wait until NOW to start the anti-PED lobbying, then? Why not do so five years ago when it became 'clear' to Floyd (or whoever else) that he was clean and that everyone else he was fighting (as you claim) was not? Why has Floyd, the apparent moral crusador in this instance, said almost NOTHING about PED's in his entire career but has decided NOW to unleash a shit-storm months before a super-fight he has, in principle, agreed to undertake?

But if he had lobbied for this change years ago, as suggested above, he might well have gotten what he wanted. But then again, as you now admit, he himself might also be on the PED's, so instead his prior silence stems from self-preservation and this shit-storm, of his creation, has nothing to do with changing the tests, cleaning up the sport or levelling the playing fields. Oh no. It's about little old Floyd playing the current system for his own advantage. Well excuse me for not rushing to arms in support. In fact, if what you suggest is true, Mayweather is as big and culpable a cheat as you claim Manny is.

No, Cotto should have fought at 147. I said so at the time, in fact, and have said so again since the fight. My position on this has been made very clear elsewhere- I hate catchweights.

You are damn right the repercussions are great. Mayweather has reduced the negotiating, in public no less, to the lowest possible denominator. And don't let anyone think it wasn't deliberate, because it was. Mayweather Sr has been preparing this little stunt for quite some time, dropping little PED related quotes and accusations against Pac for months and months and months, waiting for the time to unleash the shit cloud.

You answer your own question. Refusing a fight because of a ring size, or a couple of pounds in weight and so on has no real or lasting personal affect on a fighter and his reputation. Drug related shit sticks, however, and the Mayweather's KNOW it. Take a look around at how you, REED and a variety of other intelligent, knowledgeable boxing supporters have already found Manny guilty and are moving onto sentencing. Based on what, exactly? His refusal to take tests set not by any ruling body or sanctioning organisation but by Roger and Floyd Mayweather?

What the fuck is the point in having sanctioning bodies and commissions if it is not THEY who are the arbitrators of such things? Is it not their responsibility to create the PROCEDURES, RULES and MECHANISMS which HAVE to be adhered to?

I already agreed that Manny has dealt with this VERY badly. I also already agreed that it is perfectly possible that this reaction could be because he has been taking PED's.

To be honest, this is the only pertinent part of your post and I could easily have simply responded directly to this, because this is clearly your starting point and it this which is deeply flawed. You have absolutely no idea whether or not Manny is clean. No-one here does. The only people who know this are Manny, Roache and Arum. You have no proof of any kind to make this kind of assertion and, were you to publish such an assertion, you would be legally liable for defamation and could be sued into the next century for it. This is a FACT and about the only fact that anyone here has.

Your entire post founds upon an assertion you are in absolutely no position to make and this is why your post is complete speculation and no more than that.

MTF

 

Brilliant post.

Just like everybody elses, Outlander's post is pure speculation and assumption. People were fawning over it because it was nicely written, but ultimately it's just as speculative, just as assuming, and no more factual than anyone else's.

The important facts in this case are that Manny has never failed a drug test or been linked to steroids in any tangible way, and that Floyd has never requested testing approaching this level before to any of his opponents.

I also agree that Team Manny have dealt with it extremely badly, and made themselves look more guilty than they possibly are.

 

So we're taking the word of VICTOR CONTE as gospel now? The guy is as dirty as they come but because it supports the arguement you want to pass him off as an 'expert'?

Outlander's post was on point as usual but it suffers from assumption. I agree that Pac has handled this about as badly as he possibly could but there is NO evidence to say he's on PEDs. NONE.

I think he is (I think all top boxers/athletes are) but no one can categorically state that he is. He has never tested positive in multiple tests.

Anyone saying that Pac's wins now have to have an asterisk? Mark one next to every professional fighter that has fought at the top level and never tested positive. Think that's a stretch? Why? Isn't that exactly what's happening with Manny now?

No evidence but a guilty verdict nonetheless. Just be prepared to use the same rationale across the board.

 

Agreed, and I find the bolded part especially sad.

What does it say about our sport and those who follow it most passionately that the most phenominally successful, watchable and likeable fighter of many a year has become convicted of cheating in the minds of a majority (according to the poll in this thread) on the basis of, well, nothing bar a refusal to accept a contractual demand from another fighter?

It's almost as if people are actively willing Manny to be a cheat, instead of presuming his innocence (as any rational person in a rational society with any pretence to a 'rule of law' ought to) until such a time as his guilt is proven.

MTF :dunno:

 

:bears:

Bang on. You're starting to give Aussie posters a good name Genius :kidcool:

 

Unfortunately it's part of the make-up of boxing fans, these sort of knee jerk reactions, and unfair, fickle, presumptive nature.

It's why I can't understand why REED was arguing with me that nobody would still be accusing Manny of roiding if he were to agree to these tests and clearly lose to Floyd.

There's absolutely no doubt there would be a huge amount of people, probably the odd scribe included, citing a clear loss to Floyd as further "evidence" that Manny was roided up to the eyeballs before. That's just what boxing is like, just like when someone loses they are "exposed".

And that's exactly why I said before that Pacman is in a lose lose situation to some extent.

 

It will definitely happen. Floyd will beat Manny and it won't be close. I personally think Floyd will give Manny the Ricky Hatton treatment. KO mid rounds. 7 or 8 I think.

After it, people will say it was because Pac wasn't able to roid.

 

Genius, where as I disagree with you on the outcome (I'm picking Manny by decision, but of course I know Floyd might win) - you KNOW it, that there's no doubt what we say would happen if Manny did lose clearly to Floyd, whether by KO or decision. That's exactly what many, many people would say.

Just curious though, what makes you think Floyd is going to KO Manny, and why are you so sure Floyd wins?

Floyd couldn't even KO chinny Judah.

I can see Floyd winning a VERY safety first decision, but opening up enough to KO Manny? Who has an excellent chin? I can't see it.

 

I'm not sure. It's a feeling I've had about this matchup for a long time. I think that while Manny has been able to confuse he last few opponents with angles, he's going to have a really hard time hitting Floyd. Judah is chinny but Hatton isn't/wasn't and Floyd iced him. I think FM had more trouble with Judah's speed then anything else.

I just see Pac getting caught throwing an awkward punch and at least knocked down. Floyd's speed has diminished, but he's faster than Pac's last few opponents and with the possible exception of Cotto, he's bigger too.

Pac will get overaggressive (possibly due to FM going for a safety first stinker) and FM will catch him cold. I don't believe that May doesn't have KO power, I just think he doesn't sit down on his punches often enough to do the job.

 

You cite Judah's speed as troubling Floyd, Manny is even faster than Judah, especially the 147 pound Judah that Floyd fought.

There's no doubt Manny's speed and being a southpaw is going to trouble Floyd a lot.

And while Floyd has slowed down, you're right, he is significantly quicker than Pacquiao's last 3 opponents. He is also much rangier than Hatton and Cotto.

There's no doubt Floyd is going to be able to catch Pacquiao.

But it's going to be with potshots.

You know I agree Floyd is not feather fisted, it's just that his safety first style doesn't really lend itself to KO's.

But he is not a puncher either. Hatton literally RAN into that punch, was already tired etc too. It was an impressive KO, but you have to look at Floyd's whole career to judge his power.

And given how safety first he was even against MARQUEZ for fucks sake, can you really imagine him taking any risks or commiting to shots against a super quick, powerful beast like Pacquiao?

I could be wrong, but I just can't see it. Just like I find it hard to see Pacquiao KOing Floyd. A KO either way seems unlikely for the simple fact that Floyd is so fucking cautious and boring.

Plus there is an absolutely huge difference between Pacquiao's defense and Hatton's defense. Pacquaio's all round defense and head movement has improved tremendously, and even when he gets a bit wild, he never RUNS into shots like Hatton does.

 

I hope we'll get to see who's right. Like I said, I've just had a feeling about this fight. I think FM will make it look easy.

EDIT: Hatton ran into that shot because he was frustrated by Floyd's style. I think Pac will do the same thing albeit not a stupidly as Hatton. One hard potshot could be all it takes. It depends on the timing. Floyd has the speed and counterpunching ability to capitalise on mistakes. Both guys will have to box a perfect fight, I just think Floyd has more chance of doing that than Manny.

 

Funnily enough Hut Hut has the same "feeling" about the fight as you.

I sure as fuck hope you're both wrong :kidcool:

Thinking about it logically, I can't see it. Floyd is too cautious, Pacquiao is too tough.

And while Floyd is the hardest to hit fighter in boxing, don't forget Pacquiao is perhaps the fastest, hardest and most unpredictable puncher in boxing.

Unless Floyd pulls a Dirrell, he is getting hit by Pacman.

 

Dirrell gets hit plenty. Plus, you forgot to mention that Pacquiao, besides being a hard, fast and unpredictable puncher, is the best combination puncher in the sport. Everything he does is in combination. That will be key against Mayweather.

 

I already have a bet on this fight that Floyd KO's Pac