James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe @ 168

The Toney that brutalized Barkley vs the Calzaghe that punished Lacy. Both performances were seen as near flawless. How do you see this fight go if both were at their absolute best?

 

Toney was very effective at 68. Dave Tiberi caught Toney on a bad day and the book on how to beat James Toney was written; get on him and throw a lot of punches. A lot of guys got beat up a lot trying to write another chapter in that book.
James had a move that he would use a lot against southpaws- he used it to stop Nunn and Robinson- where, after landing some right hands, he uses his right as a cover to shift his feet and get a position to land a hard straight left from a southpaw stance. I imagine that he would hurt Joe to the body and with right hands during the course of the fight- Calzaghe was a tough guy and wouldn't show it and would fight hard- but he would get caught really hard 8, 9 rounds in and stopped.
The way James positioned himself made southpaws move to a position that they might not want to be- their lead foot inside his. You can step around him, but he will just get low and track with as you move. He will play lazy and let you punch to keep you there, then throw that shift at you and move you right into his left.

 

James would win rounds where they exchange heavily but Calzaghe would win rounds based on volume from the outside. The fight would really be like a fun version of the Hopkins fight, where it's dead even and just comes down to the what the judges like.

 

I'd favor Toney if it's the Barkley version. I just feel he'd do more damage, especially down the stretch, where he'd probably score a KD of Joe and maybe even have him in serious trouble.

Toney by UD.

 

Great post once again

 

It’s close, but Toney’s harder, more damaging punches carry the day. His left hooks to the body would hurt Joe similar to how Brewer was able to do so in their fight.

 

Agreed. Toney's accurate body attack would have Calz's weakened down the stretch.

Basically, I think it would play out similarly to Toney-Jirov.

 

Calzaghe, Toney, and Ward - who are easily the 2-4 best super middles ever - make up an interesting matchup triangle imo.

I think Ward had the style to beat Toney.

Toney had the style to beat Calz.

And Calz had the style to beat Ward.

Of course, prime Jones thrashes all 3.

 

I'd give calz a better chance against toney than Ward. But I'd make a solid underdog against both

 

Calzaghe and Ward would be really interesting, although not an aesthetically great fight. Both are good thinkers and able to adapt on the fly, no chance of a KO imo but the changes in momentum, trap setting etc would be fun to watch.

 

Toney wide and easy with multiple knockdowns

 

Nunn slap avalanched Toney for 10 rounds, I don't see why the ultimate slap avalancher the Jazzerciser can't do better and do it over 12 rounds for the decision

 

Peak Nunn was not only much better than Calzaghe but also significantly taller which aided him style wise vs Toney

 

Especially the first part

Calzaghe had a better career than Nunn, but Nunn peaked higher.

Joe would never sniff the top 4 P4P in the late 80s the way Nunn did.

 

Calzaghe narrowly out hustled a 42 year old hopkins who had a ~30 punch a round output. And he, erm, edged out Mikel Kessler. He spent the rest of his career fighting guys like Tucker Pudwell in provincial British shopping centres pretending to be afraid of air travel. And now he beats peak James Toney. FUCK JOE CALZAGHE!

 

Exactly. It's fucking insanity of the highest level. At the end of the day, guy arguably lost the biggest fight of his career agaisnt the same methuselah hopkins that got a lucky draw against Jean Lol Pascal and got comprehensively outboxed by Chad dawson. And now were supposed to act like he has a shot against a monster like James toney!!! Get the fuck out of here with that bull shit

 

I think higher of Calzaghe that you two do. I just think prime Toney has the style to outclass him.

I still think Calzaghe could have beaten Ward.

 

Can see that Hoot has returned to boxing threads after his extended sojourn in the right-wing circle jerk blackhole.

'Edged out Kessler' indeed. Calzaghe won that fight going away. In the immediate aftermath of the fight, Hoot praised the cokefiend to the hilt and says he proved himself an 'all time great'. I keep receipts: GREAT Performance by Calzaghe!!!...

I see the same daftness about how shot Hopkins was has resurfaced, too. I mean, he only beat Tarver and Winky in his fights before Joe, then Pavlik straight afterwards, but apparently he was so shot he got brayed by Dawson (aye, four years later).

Just like old times.

MTF

 

And let's not pretend like Toney shouldn't have a loss to Tiberi or whatever his name was.

 

At that point, Hopkins was pretty much a style guy. He could perform admirably well against some style, (Pavlik, Tarver), yet look completely shot and impotent against fighter he would have blasted i his prime (Calz, Jermaine fucking Taylor, shot RF, Pascal). Wasnt a pretty decent performance by calz but my god, the credit he gets for barely edging a geriatric fighter in a very negative performance is incredible (yes hop was also very negative, I know)???

 

Calz has that robin reid fight also.... and he doesnt have the excuse of being a lazy fuck who trained on cheeseburger a la toney

 

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Never said Hopkins was 'shot' (certainly never while passably sober). Said he was old and relied on being able to reduce a fight to a snails pace to compete which Calzaghe had the style combined with requisite quality not to allow him to do. Thats Joe's greatest win - a styles makes fights triumph over an old guy. Right wing, away & piss off.

 

If Hopkins was so confident that he'd 'blast' Calzaghe in his 'prime' (when was this by the way? His fans always give him a pass for losing to Jones as he was 'green' and he was 'old' when he lost to JT, so presumably somewhere in between, where his best wins are probably Joppy (a guy who I thought arguably lost to Howard Eastman) Echols (Jesus wept), Tito (an ATG welterweight whose resume at 160 was the aforementioned Joppy) and a cross-dressing WW who took an obvious dive). Hopkins' resume as a 160 ATG is fucking garbage), why is it on the record that Joe went to the US, agreed terms with Hopkins to fight in 2003 only for Bernard to pull out soon after to fight *checks notes* Morrade Hakar?

It always amazes me how quick people are to (rightly, in a lot of cases) rip Calzaghe to bits for his shite resume but Hopkins is an ATG. Hopkins arguably lost to the only really good middleweights he ever fought at that weight and was then 'geriatric' when he won some other fights later in his career.

MTF

 

I thought I'd get a bite out of you for that. You're getting tetchy in your old age. Welcome back to the boxing forum

My comments re: Hopkins were clearly aimed at JOM, the other remaining Calzaghe hater on this site. The comments re: Kessler we're aimed at you, which I see you conspicuously failed to address?

MTF

 

Bhop was 43 years old when he faced calz. Are we really gonna pretend he was in his prime??

And let's be serious, hopkins resume blows calzaghe out of the water, and its not evdn close.

Ill be honest, i dont recall hop pulling out of a clazaghe fight. But i do recall dear old joe pulling out a thousand times of a glencoffe johnson fight

 

Of course he wasn't in his prime when he fought Joe. I'm not saying he was. But the point I'm making in that Hopkins 'prime' tends to depend on whatever argument someone tries to make in respect of him. How many genuine, world class MWs did he beat in his prime? Which MW did Hopkins beat that was better than, say, Kessler at 168? Is Robin Reed any worse than Echols, or Joppy? Hopkins best (legit) win at 160 was Tito. His resume doesn't blow anyone's out of the water. It's as thin as piss.

Of course, the fact that Calz retired one fight after Hopkins is always overlooked when the retrospective on this site is conducted. Calzaghe was hardly a spring-chicken himself, was he?

It's in Calzaghe's book. An interview with an HBO exec explains what happened with Hopkins and Joe. If that fight happened too late, it's on Hopkins, not Joe. It was all agreed. Hopkins pulled the plug.

Calzaghe did shamelessly duck Johnson, of course. No doubt about that.

MTF

 

Hopkins landed 260 shots vs Trinidad & Holmes. Over 300 vs Joppy & Glen Johnson

He landed under 150 vs Pavlik, Tarver, Taylor & Calzaghe

He was very good at slowing it down and spoiling so he could still score Ws against well selected opponents who he could nullify into his 40s

But he needed to. He was still 42 with a moped's gastank & any decent volume guy was gonna be cryptonite.

How much does Calzaghe being that guy mean?

 

Hey jean pascal was unlucky to get a draw against that hopkin (since one of tjr kd was ruled to have been caused by a rabbit puch)

 

Maybe the guys he hit more often were not as good at the guys he didn't? Look at those names again. Which is the better list?

Still nowt re: your post-Kessler fight comments I see?

 

Maybe Pascal was good enough to beat an older version of Hopkins? Maybe he was just a bit better than Echols, Greene, Joppy etc?

MTF