Tam

Based on what?

 

What do you mean? Punching power has no base in factual grounds. Its like debating who's hits harder with a left hook. Al you can show is examples and state why.

ABraham knocks fools out with glancing shots and single blows and has done it right throughout his career. He just doesn't throw enough punches because he's defensive minded a lot of the time and has shit all stamina.

Pavlik is a better accumulation puncher, with big power of his own. His KO % is so high because he throws about 5 times as many punches as Abraham. Similar to the difference between a David Tua and a George Foreman. I think Tua hit harder, but was less of a fighter and less busy.

If there's anything he can do, its crack like a motherfucker. There's just no doubt about it, IMO. It's all guestimation anyway.

 

Well, he hit Taylor AND jantuah with some solid shots, and they didn't go anywhere. And they are welterweights.

His power is good, but nothing special, like taylor.

Pavlik's punches are brutal. Just look at the zertuche, miranda, and taylor fights, all in a row. He can PUNCH.

I'm not saying smurf can't hurt pavlik, he can, taylor managed to afterall. But he doesn't hit harder than Pavlik.

Smurf has only looked powerful against bums. Has he even stopped a world class fighter?

 

I can agree with that.

Pavlik's got heavy-handed, thudding power...and it's his workrate and accumulation with those heavy shots that ultimately break his opponents down, no doubt about it.

Pavlik's bombs are loose, casual, "dropped" relaxed shots that do damage you don't even realize is there - until it's too late. And they pile up.

Case in point are the Taylor fights - especially the first one; you can actually see Taylor's expressions and body reacting in little increments to those shots as early as the 2nd round. Happened with Miranda and Zertuche too, among others.

Abraham's got those quick, explosive, highly-torqued shots, especially that left hook and left uppercut....I would buy into the assessment that he has better single-shot power, though it's hard to 'argue' against Pavlik's right hand if it's fully extended and catches you clean.

The danger for Pavlik in this fight is actually going to be on the inside...he'd do well to keep Arthur at distance.

Peace.

 

You keep holding onto those two fighters and ignore the other things he's done, like its the be-all and end-all. Plenty of big punchers haven't been able to get fighters out of there, when you'd expect them too. Performance, motivation...shit, there are litterally hundreds of factors which go into what makes a fight take the flow it does.

Pavlik's punches are brutal? Thats just your opinion, bro. Zerutuche is a can of lower quality than Abraham has been defending against. Gevor's loss to Abraham was uglier than all of those. Look how brutal that was!!!111 :doh:

Pavlik has stopped one world class fighter; Taylor. And he didnt come close to doing it when he hit him for 12 rounds in the rematch. Lets not act as if theire is some monumental difference in opponent quality. Take out Taylor and Pavlik and Abraham are the same guy resume wise, displaced by thousands of kilometers.

 

Zertuche is better than most of the cans Abraham faced. So is Zuniga.

And those 2 are not all I base it on, of course I know that even the best of pucnhers can't KO their opponents all the time.

But if Pavlik hit either Jantuah or Sharon with his right hand, they wouldn't still be standing.

Their only common opponent took smurf's punches a lot better than he did Kelly's.

Until smurf KO's a fringe world class fighter, even say - Miranda, his power is not as proven as Pavlik.

Freitas is a good comparison. People thought he was an absolutely monster puncher, but look at just how much less effective his punches were when he stepped up in class.

 

Why, because they fought on TV all the time? Give me a break. Zuniga got trashed by Daniel Santos. Badly. Jantuah KOed Santos. SNAP.

More opinion. This is no different to my own argument, only I'm not making assumptions about what would happen.

Bingo. Thats what it comes down to. Your entire argument. ABraham had a busted fucking face and threw no punches and still managed to wobble and hurt Miranda every single time he landed. He never mounted a consistent assault. Pavlik did that for SEVEN ROUNDS and it took that long before Miranda finally cracked...and all we heard right after was how badly weight drained Miranda was blah blah blah.

It's not all black and white. Abraham didn't KO Miranda and Pavlik did.

:nono: Proven? No. You can't "prove" power. I addressed that in the very first post.

 

Of course you can prove power. For example if you can KO or stop world class opponents, bam, you have power. Pavlik has proven he can do this, and Abraham hasn't.

Why are you rolling eyes at my Freitas analogy? It's true, his power looked formidable against cans, yet nothing special at world level. The same holds true with abraham.

And I am not just basing it on Pavlik KOing Miranda and Smurf not. That's part of it sure. I didn't see Miranda in any serious trouble by the way, when did all this Miranda getting rocked occur? He was stunned a couple of times, but not close to how fucked up he was against Pavlik.

I am also basing it on Pavlik KOing every top opponent he has faced, and their reaction to getting hit by his right hand.

 

Alright, we've wasted enough time.

As you were, Jew boy.

 

Smurf fanboy

So who are you going to pick then, seriously, if the fight is signed?

 

Pavlik, but depending on the line I may bet Abraham, because I think he has a realistic chance.

 

What are your reasons behind picking Pavlik? Are you picking him to outwork Smurf and decision him, or stop him?

 

Pavlik's range, length on his right hand in particular is good. He's busier than Abraham and I don't doubt he has the power to hurt him as well.

Arthur has looked far less interested and brave since the Miranda fight.

 

It could be quite boring, even though they are both punchers.

Abraham has that high guard, low punch output, somewhat negative style.

I have to say I don't see much difference pre and post Miranda though.

Pavlik's handspeed is very average for a middleweight, but for somehow people still find it difficult to get out of the way of his right hand. It's thrown straight, and it's LONG, and his timing and accuracy is excellent.

It also has enough force behind it to just bust through Smurf's guard I feel.

 

That's because opponents consistently under-estimate his height, reach and the distance he can cover with his legs.

One of the main reasons I picked Pavlik over Taylor.

It's the same like with Cotto...he has that casual, methodical, "plodding" style and opponents think he is slow of hand and foot.

Pavlik IS slow...but the ground he can cover with his feet and arms is amazing.

Peace.

 

How many common opponents do they have besides Miranda?

 

dsimon writes:

Abraham is another Margarito. He languishes on the fringes of being taken seriously as a contender for the big prize. Yes it was impressive what he did against Miranda with his jaw but Miranda is just not that good.

You can't compare him to a top guy (Pavlik, Taylor) anymore than one can compare Margarito to Cotto and Floyd. The smurf should fight Taylor they need each other. I didn't consider this before but this would be a great fight for Taylor and for Abraham and would decide which one of them should remain in the running.

 

dsimon writes:

Pavlik dominated Miranda also that counts. It might seem trivial but the addition of one world class guy makes all the difference in the world.

I do understand your critique is based on punching power exclusively but even in this respect Abraham is still an unknown until he fights up a level from his present comp. IMO this illustrates the point of why Taylor and Abraham is a great fight to be made.

 

Taylor appears to be in the same boat as Miranda, when it comes to weight.

They're both interested at competing higher than 160.

Also, Dibella has been pushing for a Taylor-Roy Jones Jr. fight in the fall (though Jones has also talked about fighting the winner of Woods-Tarver).

I'd prefer to see Abraham-Taylor because I think it proves more in re to Abraham, though the Miranda fight has the intrigue of their first fight and figures to be a more exciting fight...perhaps a very exciting fight.

I would mention one thing, however, regarding levels of opposition.

Pavlik's only been at that level for three fights. The two Taylor fights and Miranda.

Before that, he wasn't all that far along. He had only faced some moderate opponents like Zuniga, Zertuche, McKart (and was knocked down by both Zuniga and McKart).

The problem with the division is it just isn't very deep with world class talent. At least not that's been proven.

 

Well Abraham turned pro three years after Kelly, so he still has some time to knock Jermain out and his resume will be equal to that of Kelly. Actually it would run deeper, but we´ll keep that to ourselves, not ruining the perceptions here. ::

The first guy Pavlik fought that wasn´t a career opponent was Zuniga in 2005, that was his 5th year as a pro and his 27th fight. Abraham doesn´t even have 27 fights yet, but I see Miranda, Eastman, Jantuah, Velazco, Gardner, Ikeke, Hamdan, Demers, Gevor.

Ah well you people thought Lacy would beat Calzaghe, and not because Calzaghe was 35 and looked poor in his previous fights, but because you actually thought Lacy was a better fighter, because he had beaten Omar Sheika, and Rubin Williams :laughing:

 

gnihihihi:atu:

 

:atu::atu:Abraham is one of the worst title holders in history. He is on par with William Joppy, a ton of defenses against a bunch of who who the fuck is thats?

People forget that he was stopped, tko'd by the skilless hack Edison Miranda. He was stopped and he was not allowed to quit even though he begged to quit.

I do not thonk Pavlik is very good but he is a few solid classes above Abraham and he would stop AA. I don't predict kayos usually but Pavlik has about a 95% chance of a brutal kayo.

 

Lies...

MTF

 

Let's just say he has a better chance of ko'ing AA than that drug smuggler had against Amir Khan. :kidcool:

 

Is this an attempt to be amusing Gatti? :dunno:

Of course Pavlik has a chance to KO Abraham, he's the fucking champion of the world! Quite what Amir Khan has to do with this obvious fact is beyond me...

MTF

 

yes.artie: