1981 compared to 2011

Yeah, I think Americans can be unfairly biased when it comes to American fighters. That has fuck-all to do with what I think of American fighters, some of whom I like, some of whom I don't.

Your eagerness to jump to conclusions would be understandable if it were isolated or innocent. We all do that. The difference is that you do it consistently, to fit your own agenda, and you do it a lot.

 

I'd say the current crop of super middleweights (Froch/Kessler/Ward/Bute) are roughly as good as the early 90s 'UK' crop of Benn/Eubank/Collins/Watson.

 

I dont have an agenda, man

I just know that Mike McCallum was a better fighter than any of those guys

And he's Jamaican anyway, there's no nationalist bent

 

I also think SuperMiddleweight is the best division in the sport.

 

And Kalambay is Italian/African. It's just an objective analysis of the results between the fighters and common opponents. Those guys (+ Toney, Nunn & Jones) were a little better than Eubank/Benn/Collins/Watson.

 

I'd agree with that. Have a feeling Ward is better than all of them, to be honest.

It's rare advantage for today.

 

Same

 

More than a little, IMO

 

Sorry Mike, I was referring to the current crop of British super Middleweights now, compared to the 90's, barring Froch.

 

People tend to overrate what they've seen and underrate what they haven't. People tend to overrate what they've seen live on tv and underrate what they have seen on tape. People tend to overrate what they were present for and underrate what they weren't present for.

In descending order.

Which is why guys like Sahaprom get minimal love and HBO guys get licked.

Which is why British 90's supermids tend to get underrated vs US fighting supermids in the 90's.

Which is why the sport is down right now. Except for a few guys they show on HBO, no one is any good.

 

I think Roy was probably the best supermid of the bunch.
Then I think you can argue the rest of them in pretty much any order, and that includes both the brits and the americans.

Ward seems to be the guy with the best chance to be considered better than Roy. And he has a way to go, but he is on the way. Unless you just dismiss everyone in the 2010's, which will happen for a while. As this thread shows.

 

One could argue anything he likes, but you couldn't make a good argument for the UK based fighters ranking over the American based fighters based on all the results.

Collins & Watson each hold wins over Benn
Collins holds wins over Eubank, while Watson fought a disputed loss to him.

McCallum beat Collins & Watson emphatically
Kalambay beat Collins, too, as did Reggie Jonhson.

Toney beat Reggie Johnson & drew with McCallum (who each beat Collins who beat both Benn & Eubank).

Meanwhile none of the 4 major UK based fighters holds a win over any man who's beaten the 3 American based men. You'd be working pretty hard to rank the UK based crop above their American based contemporaries.

 

A lot has to transpire before we can say Ward could be better than Jones. Before Roy was 30 he'd already beaten Hopkins and Toney. We didn't know Hopkins would get better and didn't know Toney was already as good as he'd get.

Hopkins is definitely a Hall of Famer...Toney...maybe maybe not.

I can't think of anyone on Ward's ledger that shows the potential to have the career of Hopkins nor Toney...but again...time is on his side.

 

I'm not so sure the fighters are the problem. Isn't the problem the fights? Guys like PBF, Pacquiao, Dawson, Ward, Donaire, Gamboa, Vitali....they're every bit as promising as the guys from 1981 (emphasis on "promise" because we can't declare them to be as good or better given the fights they have NOT had yet).

 

Do it this way...list the best wins for each fighter and the losses for each fighter.

They are all comparable. And if you show the records when you do this, you'll see how easy it is to give more and less weight to the things you've posted.

Only Roy didn't stumble, but of course we can look to his chin problems later and conclude that he could have had problems with a banger like Benn.

Drake Thadzi? Dave Tiberi? Steve Little?

McCallum was 36-1 when he beat 16-0 Collins. That's dispositive?

And notice how Calzaghe was left out of this discussion?

 

Oh, and Kalambay wasn't even a supermid.
Normally, this argument includes Calzaghe, Collins, Benn and Eubank and Toney, Jones, Liles, and Nunn. They were more contemporaries.

McCallum never did anything at supermid. I think he completely skipped over the division.

 

No.

 

yes
"I won't be surprised if I get knocked down by Merqui Sosa"
"I avoided McClellan like the plague."
"I won't travel because I'm afraid"

Actually, McClellan belongs in the above discussion, too. Oh, a win for a brit; keep him out.

 

cormac and Joe disappear and all of a sudden a legitimate boxing discussion breaks out, amazing.

 

I seemed to have missed those quotes. Cite sources other than your ass.

The Brits didn't want Jones. They were happy to fight amongst themselves.

 

I was mainly comparing them as middleweight contemporaries,mate. The division the 7/8 men all fought at as approximate contemporaries & at comparable moments in their career arc in terms of 'prime' & comfort at the weight. That's the only place the guys mentioned can be fairly gauged against each other as a (loose) group. Certainly some of them achieved more above 160 than others and it was a little lazy of me to bring up fights there (Collins beating Eubank & Benn) to draw conclusions about their ability at middle without provisos.

Benn's win over McClelland is probably the best win any of the UK group ever achieved & elevates them all as a result, but McCelland never fought anybody else who fits anywhere in the discussion except a post-peak Julian Jackson. And it also has to be said that Benn won that fight via a fight changing/ending injury which mitigates its meaningfulness, IMHO.

 

Quite a tangent this shit is, eh......apologies Broadway Joe.

 

As I remember, the first quote was mentioned in the leadup and in the telecast of Jones/Sosa. I know there was a fight where he expected to have to get off of the canvas.

I made up the 2nd quote.

The 3rd quote is a compilation of his bullshit with getting ripped off in the olympics to justify not going to Germany. It was the only reason he could come up with not to go to Germany and make more money than he would here.

 

How do you think Collins, Eubank & Benn might have fared against Jones?

 

The last few years have been a great era for Russians, Filipinos and Brits

 

The first quote is what he said to Larry Merchant after the Lou Del Valle fight. He said he had a premonition he'd get knocked down because Del Valle had been a sparring partner and he knew Roy's stuff so well.

The third is made up as well...just say it.

For the record, dariusz was ringside when Roy KO'd Hill...in fact, I forget which broadcast it was but HBO on their "Upcoming fights" had a graphic listing Roy vs Dariusz...obviously the fight never materialized and DM wasn't seen stateside afterward.

 

We'll never know because Roy didn't want to fight them. That's especially the case for Collins.

I favor Roy at his best over any fighter I've seen, but I think all 3 of them would have had a chance against him and all 3 would have been on his 'best wins' list.

I think he's too fast for Collins. Collins' 4 wins over Benn and Eubank are impressive, but they happened when those guys were on the downside. I do think Collins would have stuck around. I do think he's more dangerous than Richard Hall, for example. Could Roy take Collins' pressure? We don't really know. I sort of remember Collins being Dariusz-light.

Benn would have had a true puncher's chance. I think Roy weathers most storms and takes him out, but Benn has hope.

Eubank probably loses clear decisions most of the time. I don't think he gets taken out by Roy very often. I think he wins some rounds. Probably similar to Jones/Toney.

 

so why are you asking if you know it's true?

The third isn't made up. Roy's only excuse for not going to Germany was Korea.

Roy didn't even travel to watch Dariusz fight. Lineal claim, more money in Germany = Roy's fault for it not happening. The excuse that Americans usually get to fall back on for the home field advantage is $$$. Roy didn't have that. Roy didn't draw shit for ppv's back then and they could have telecast it back to the States easily enough...at the same time they were piling in 50,000 fans at the gate.

 

wrong again about Collins.

Collins called out Roy for a 168 pound fight when Roy had been at 175 for a few years.

(I've told this story before so those who have heard it I apologize)

After Tyson-Etienne (the week before Jones-Ruiz) I asked Freddie Roach about Collins and he said they didn't believe he could've beaten Roy but wish they had the chance.

He said Roy ducked Collins and when I asked how he sighed then said the above. Didn't respond to the bit about Collins being retired then calling Roy out at 168 after Roy was at 175 for a few years.

At the time Roach was training Toney and he said Jones was "ducking" James. To which I laughed seeing that this was many years after Roy embarassed James.

Bottom line...he was spiteful and knew Collins had no chance.

 

Your point was about Roy vs the Brit 168 fighters...the Sosa fight was at 168.

The Del Valle fight was at 175...two or three years AFTER he fought Sosa.

I'm merely pointing out how you've taken Jones out of context and applied it to the wrong fight and weight class.

Lastly, I asked to see if you knew you were talking out of your ass again or simply didn't know what you were saying. It's now obvious it's an even mix of both.