Truthfully, Leonard's post Hearns 1 resume has a lot to be desired, which his fans conveniently seem to forget. Still...Hagler was a good win, let's not pretend otherwise. Marvin was past prime, sure, but he was still undefeated in 12 years going into that one. Leonard vs Duran? Above Lightweight, Leonard was the better fighter overall...and Leonard never fought at lightweight. NO DOUBT. Sorry to say but Hearns as a common opponent, proved this. You don't get knocked THE FUCK OUT IN TWO ONE-SIDED ROUNDS to a guy who himself got worn down and stopped by another and claim to be better than that other. I know styles makes fights and all of that...but still...
Duran fighting Hearns is roughly the equivalent of the 1989 version of Leonard fighting Bob Foster. Who's to say what would happen there, a 2 round blow out is hardly out of the question.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Hc-3vaSlwsc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> 2:40 intot he video "the ring a big ring 21 by 21"
Let the Record Show that Duran Fans R EVERY BIT as DELUSIONAL as Tyson, Tito, Roy Jones & Other Factions of Fans have Been Accused of Being... REED:dancingBaby:
So the size of the ring caused Duran to shit his pants in anger? Oh my mistake. You haven't gotten to that excuse yet.
Duran is the greatest lightweight of all time. None of the other fighters you named were the greatest in any of the 8 original divisions (RJJ is my #1 168 lber of all time). In an era when a lightweight was actually a lightweight, he moved up two divisions and beat a welterweight who was maybe the 2nd or 3rd greatest welterweight of all time. He won the middleweight title at the age of 38. He fought to a close decision loss against one of the top 3 greatest MWs of all time. The difference between people who think Duran is one of the greatest and people who think RJJ, Tyson, and Tito are GOATs is that the former are demonstrably not deluded. Anyway, speaking of common opponents - if you want to go that route, then is Duran better than Hearns at 160 because he beat Barkley and Hearns got stopped by him? Or what about Duran competitively going the distance with Hagler, whereas Hearns got stopped in 3 rounds? edit: While I am an occasional Tito hater and ambivalent on RJJ, I am a huge Tyson fan. And there is NO comparison between Tyson and Duran.
GTFOH! Duran had just recently fought Hagler at MIDDLEWEIGHT before fighting Hearns at Jnr Middle and Duran had been a champion at Jnr middle at the time of the Hearns fight. Duran was also the slight favourite over Hearns (probably based upon Leonard as a common opponent). You trying to tell me that the size difference between Hearns and Duran is equivalent to Foster and Leonard?
Here's the PROBLEM... Duran Fans NEVER Wanna Discuss or COUNT the LOSSES...Sure, Duran "Moved Up 2 Divisions and Beat a Welterweight", but he LOST in an IMMEDIATE RE to that Same Welterweight...Moreso, Ray Leonard HAD NOT Established Himself as Being Possibly the 2nd or 3rd Greatest Welter @ that Point...Nonetheless, Duran Fans HABITUALLY Toe the Company Line Almost APPLAUDING him for QUITTING???...That's THE Most LAUGHABLE Shit REED's EVER Seen or Heard from Boxing Fans... Duran Beat Barkley in a Fight that COULD have Gone EITHER WAY... & NONE of Ya'll EVER Give Hearns his Just Due for Completely DEFECATING Upon Duran...In the HISTORY of Boxing, Losses DON'T Get Much More 1-Sided as Duran's Loss to Hearns was...Yet Here was Brother Hut LITERALLY Saying that'd B like Leonard Facing Bob Foster???... The Problem w/Duran Fans is they Give him CREDIT for CLOSE Losses & NEAR Wins, yet Hold NONE of his ACTUAL LOSSES AGAINST him...& Again, the FACT that his QUITJOB is just Glossed Over by Ya'll is a Fucking JOKE, Dude... As TERRIFIED as he was, REED Would Rather a Fighter Go In There as Roy Did in the 3rd Fight w/Tarver, than Pull a QUITJOB @ the Midpoint of a Fight, like Duran Did in the RE w/Leonard... REED:hammert:
First of all, none of that changes the fact that in ~100 years of lightweight history, Duran is considered the best of the best. To be the #1 all time in a division that has existed for over 100 years and that is further noted as being home to more great fighters than pretty much any other division automatically puts Duran WAY ahead of guys like Tyson, Tito, and RJJ. At the LEAST, any reasonable boxing fan has Duran in their top 10 P4P of all time. Calling anyone who is an ardent fan of anyone in the top 10 P4P of all time "deluded" for being an ardent fan of someone that skilled is nonsense. Yes, he had losses, but there are the circumstances - 1. Duran was never the same fighter after Montreal. He had ballooned up to 200 lbs before the 2nd Leonard rematch. He had to lose a lot of weight in a short amount of time, then deal with an oversized ring. When he quit, he also thought he'd have another chance in the rubbermatch, but of course Leonard wasn't going to give him one (just like he didn't give Hearns one). NOBODY can honestly argue that that was the best version of Duran in the ring that night against Leonard. But the version of Leonard that fought Duran, regardless of whether people perceived him as a top 3 147 lber of all time, certainly was the same fighter. He sure as hell wasn't green, not by any means. 2. If Duran had retired immediately after Montreal, he would've already done enough in his career to have his place as a GOAT cemented and you would have nothing to criticize him on. The point is that everything he did after his shitty streak post-New Orleans was icing on the cake - he was well past his prime. It's like holding the Glen Johnson loss against RJJ. Or arguing that Kirkland Laing is a better fighter than Duran. If RJJ came back now to beat David Haye, don't you think that would add to his legacy more than losing to Glen Johnson subtracted from it? 3. There is no shame in losing to Tommy Hearns. Especially when Hearns was the much bigger, faster, and younger fighter. Again, this was in the 16th year of Duran's professional career, and he was 3 divisions past his best weight.
How can you give a pass to a fighter for not training? Getting yourself into shape is as essential as having skill, having physical abilities etc. and if a fighter is good enough, he will be in shape. With the same logic you could give Yory Boy Campas a pass against Oscar because he forgot to slip punches. If Duran wasn't prepared, then he should have cancelled the fight beforehand, not chicken out during it. There is much more reason to belittle Leonard's loss to Duran, because Ray clearly made a tactical error the first time out (though just like training, that is up to the fighter to take care of). Leonard was still a bit cocky and fought willingly on Duran's terms: he learned his lesson from that fight and proved his superiority many times after that. Duran was truly great a lightweight, but his career there alone does not make him one of the greatest ever. His achievements above it might, if he hadn't gotten whupped as many times in progress
Duran didn't have time to get himself into shape. Leonard wanted the rematch immediately specifically because he knew Duran was partying and overweight. Trying to win fights at the negotiating table was a classic Leonard tactic. Ray did not "willingly" fight on Duran's terms; if that were the case, you can bet your ass that a guy like Ray would've adjusted halfway through the fight. Duran didn't let up on him for a second in that fight, he forced Ray to fight his fight, and kicked his ass doing it. Leonard himself likened it unto fighting a demon. "Whupped many times?" Unless you're counting the Joppy fight (which wouldn't surprise me) I can count one time when Duran was soundly "whupped," and that was against Tommy Hearns. Finally, being the greatest lightweight of all time most certainly does make you one of the greatest ever. Arguing that Duran is not ATG is just assbrained. If you honestly have him outside of your top 10 P4P, you would be a rare exception, and I'd like to see who you DO have ahead of him.
If Duran really didn't want the fight, he shouldn't have accepted it, He had plenty of money already and he would have gotten a good contract elsewhere if he wanted. Sure, Leonard was a good strategist in negotiation table too but it is not like Duran had been a clueless victim. I think Leonard just had too much machismo in him in the first fight and wanted to prove that he could outslug Duran. He might have thought he was ahead (it was very close, mind you) or if he noticed it was not working, it was too late to change strategy to to outboxing. Leonard learned from his mistakes and changed the strategy for the rematch and Duran couldn't force him anymore. Nor could Duran force Benitez, who easily defeated him (though Duran surely has an excuse there too).
The Leonard fight was not close, it was much wider than the scorecards indicated. There is no way Leonard thought he was winning that fight, he was battered from pillar to post. Not only was Benitez bigger than Duran, Duran's legs were basically gone by the time he fought Benitez. He'd lost to Kirkland Laing in the fight before that. You're really going to judge Duran on those fights? Give me a break. A prime Duran would've crushed Benitez at 147.
You're QUICKLY Moving Up the "DELUDED Duran Fan" Rankings...And You're Placing Waaaaaaaay Toooooo MUCH Emphasis on Duran as a Lightweight...Let's NOT Pretend that Duran Fought in an ELITE Lightweight Era, Because he DIDN'T...Duran's Status @ that Weight is Based on LONGEVITY More than WHO Duran Beat @ that Weight... The FACT that U're CLINGING to "Circumstances" for Duran's Losses is what PINPOINTS your DELUSIONS...EVERY Fighter that's EVER Lost a Prizefight can Cite "Circumstances", yet Duran Fans EXPECT HIM to Get a Pass????... The BOTTOM Line is, Duran Could've EASILY Pulled OUT of the Immediate RE w/Leonard, if he Wasn't Prepared...He Could've "Hurt" his Hand, "Pulled" a Muscle or ANYTHING, to Avoid Getting in the Ring that Night...So Sorry, when Duran Gets IN the Ring THEN Plays the EXCUSE Game, REED & Most Boxing Fans AIN'T Buying it... Not 1nce has REED EVER Heard a Duran Fan Say,"Yeah, that Dude was just BETTER than Duran that Night" & Leave the Shit @ That...That's DELUSIONAL... REED:hammert:
DeJesus was better than Duran in their first fight (albeit a non-title fight). Duran beat a number of quality lightweights. Just because people didn't care as much about sterling records back then, doesn't mean that Ray Lampkin, Ken Buchanan, Guts Ishimatsu, Vilomar Fernandez et al weren't good fighters.
Let me ask you this: if Duran had retired after beating Leonard in Montreal, what would you have to criticize him on? He would be the #1 lightweight and have a victory over the #1 welter. Duran is analogous to Hopkins; nobody expects Hopkins to perform now at the level he did in his physical prime. Nobody holds his loss against Calzaghe against him. It is a testament to his skill and technique that he can still compete with and beat world class fighters, and he will get credit for those victories; but everyone realizes he's not the same fighter anymore. Again, I want to know where Duran is on your all time P4P lists. RJJ, Tyson, and Tito don't make an appearance on any reasonable fan's top 20, let alone top 10.
Nonetheless, Let's NOT Pretend that Duran Fought in a "Golden Age" for Lightweights or Anything...Those R Some Credible, SOLID Fighters U've Noted, but that ALONE Woulnd't have Garnered Duran Top 3 All Time Status... REED:nono:
Leonard WASN'T Held in the Same Regard that he EVENTUALLY Was, when Duran Beat him...It Wasn't Until Leonard Beat Duran, Kalule (@ 154 No Less) AND Hearns that he Finally Arrived to the Level U're Saying... People DON'T Hold the Calzaghe Loss AGAINST Hopkins???...Bernard TRIED to Get Calzaghe DQ'ed in that Fight...& it's NOT like he Fought a PRIME Calzaghe Either... Duran is Ranked VERY High on REED's lb for lb List...REED's Problem w/Duran is How he has BUILT-IN EXCUSES (or "Circumstances" as YOU Called them), for EVERY Time he Looked LESS than Stellar in the Ring... Hell, we're Talking about a Guy that WON his Lightweight Title w/a BLATANT NUTSHOT to Ken Buchanan...A Guy that WON his Super Welter Title w/Some of THE DIRTIEST TACTICS EVER, vs. Davey Moore... REED:hammert: ps. Roy Jones is EASILY Top 20 Lb for Lb on REED's List...CLOSER to Top 10-15...
Regardless, we know in retrospect what Leonard was now; we don't hold him to the perception of people at the time, because we know better now. That's my point. What makes you say Calzaghe wasn't prime? Did he show any slippage at all in the Kessler fight immediately before that, where he beat the shit out of Kessler and nearly stopped him at one point? Regardless, the point is that Bernard was way past it and half retired when he fought Calzaghe, so to hold a loss like that is as pointless as holding losing to Danny Green against RJJ. Duran was easily beating Buchanan regardless of the nutshot. The fight was his, that was primarily why he wasn't DQ'd imo. I could maybe see an argument for RJJ being top 20, primarily due to his winning titles in 4 weight classes and being "the man" at 3 of them. But he didn't really beat any notable fighters at 175, and never fought Zsolt Erdei or Dariusz M (though he would've beaten both of them). Wouldn't make my top 20, but I can see the justification. It's also hard to picture a lot of guys beating the 168 lb RJJ on a P4P basis. Floyd likes to fight the other guys fight and beat him at it. If he does that here, Duran stops Floyd. If Floyd plays it smart, he still loses a wide decision. I think a more interesting and even matchup is, Whitaker vs Duran at 135..
"A prime Duran beats the shit out of Benitez at 147!!!" Yikes. Evidently stated with exclamation points to emphasise the passion necessary to make such a rilly call.
I dunno if someone else said that, but what I said was "A prime Duran crushes Benitez at 147." No exclamation points - those were Reed's, not mine.
Leonard may have fought "Duran's fight" in Montreal, but being flat-footed and fairly aggressive was more Leonard's style anyway. He usually fought in a flat-footed manner, circling, boxing behind his jab, opening up with combinations, and often showing his amazing finishing skills. He beat great fighters in Benitez and Hearns in this manner. It just shows his great adaptability that he was able to fight in a fleet-footed manner and beat great fighters in this style as well. Duran deserves no slack for his disgraceful quit job in New Orleans. Yeah, Leonard was dancing, being very negative, and taunting. So fucking what! Then cut off the ring and make him pay! That's what you're supposed to do, and what Duran did in other fights. Duran fought Bizzarro in a ring the size of a football field and knocked him silly. Leonard was running, but also winning (though it was closer than often made out to be, neither guy was landing much). As a result, Duran couldn't take it, maybe he had some sort of mental breakdown along with Leonard's taunting. Poor Duran, getting taunted. As if he never taunted an unconscious guy with promises of sending him to the morgue next time, spit in the direction of an opponent's wife, called an opponent's wife a "puta", or grabbed his crotch in fights and in the gym (in front of kids). Duran was paid $10 million (according to that bio by Christian Guidance) for this fight. He put up an unprofessional effort in preparation for this fight and quit because he couldn't consistently cut off the ring and couldn't handle Leonard's mind games. He deserves zero, zlich, nada, no, slack for his behavior leading up to and during this fight.
If Leonard Can Be Used in "Retrospect" to BOOST Duran's Resume, REED NEVER EVER Wants to Hear ANYBODY Say that Bernard Hopkins was "Green" when Roy Jones Beat him... Calzaghe was Arguably LOSING the Kessler Fight @ the Midpoint, so REED Isn't Sure How U Can Say he 'Beat the Shit" Out of Kessler OR Damn Near Stopped him...NEITHER of the 2 Occured...Calzaghe Won CLEAR, but the 1st Half of the Fight was EXTREMELY Close...Calzaghe was PAST his Mid 30's when he Faced Bernard AND Calzaghe Relied of his ATHLETIC Ability More than Most, so the Idea of him Being PAST his Prime SHOULDN'T B Hard to Accept... No Matter WHAT Spin U Want to Place on it, Duran "KO'ed" Buchanan w/an INTENTIONAL NUTSHOT...Just like he INTENTIONALLY THUMBED & LACED Davey Moore, in Route to Winning the Jr. Middle Title...But Par for the Course, Duran Fans Rarely if EVER Note these Tidbits... As for Roy Jones, he Beat EVERY SINGLE Pertinent Lightheavy EXCEPT for MichalSHITski...Erdei WASN'T a Player when Roy was the Man...Roy DOMINATED Guys that BEAT MichalSHITski, he BEAT Tarver (The Guy that Ring Magazine Proclaimed "Lightheavy of the 2000's") AND he destROYed Virgil Hill...Not Sure HOW U Can Say Roy "Didn't Really Beat Any Notable Fighters @ 175"...OTHER than MichalSHITski, Roy Beat EVERYBODY... REED:Lok:
