A Prime Mosley vs Today's Pacquiao @ 147

Mosley has a mortal fear of being knocked out, I think.

 

I was at that fight and a couple days before I asked Al Mitchell (Vernon's trainer) if they planned to do anything different and he said no. The plan was just like in the first fight...slow the pace, look to catch Shane coming in then tie him up once he gets close to Vernon. Don't get into exchanges.

Those were Mitchell's words.

 

Refs need to start enforcing the rules regarding clinching. If you aren't working to punch your way out, DEDUCTIONS.

 

Yeah, and then Mosley went in there and initiated at least half of the clinches

 

and yet, your take was Mosley was solely at fault for the awful fight.

 

no it wasn't

my take was that he was more than happy to engage in those tactics and showed not one iota of gumption, he didn't want to take risks, he didn't want revenge

Mosley was a FRONT-RUNNER

 

where have you seen me call delahoya gutless? if you are not going to pay attention to what i write then dont paraphrase. delahoya is certainly a faggot, over rated, lost most of his big fights, etc.

forrest had a style that proved difficult to mosley

if mosley was a front runner he wouldve lost both delahoya fights when he got behind. even in his losses to wright he came on at the end of the fights.

 

In that fight I'd half agree. Mosley and Forrest had history as amatuers and Vernon was someone Shane simply couldn't beat. Going into the first fight Shane was confident based on his success as a pro but once he got hurt he reverted back to the ammy fights....same mentality.

I do think Shane's confidence was never quite the same afterward but he did go on to have good victories after...the Vargas fights...Collazzo...fought well down the stretch in the Cotto fight. To say he was a front runner is overstating it a bit.

As far as taking risks...he didn't have to fight Forrest in the first place...that's a fight he wanted to make after not being able to get a fight with Winky. He was advised to not take the immediate rematch but he forced that fight and made it immediiately. Same thing with the first Winky fight...he was advised against that fight with the Trinidad match on the table for that fall. Shane wanted that fight despite being offered an easier fight prior to the Trinidad match.

Winky and Vernon were two guys Shane didn't have to fight but wanted to fight. That's one of the reasons I like the guy. he didn't have to make those fights but did because he wanted to challenge himself and wanted to say he fought everyone there was to fight.

As much as I hate Oscar, the one bit of credit I have to give him is win or lose he fought everyone he could have once he hit 147.

I think guys give Shane more shit than deserved based on his last two fights at 39 and 40 than he deserves. Never ceases to amaze how short guys memories and attention spans are. Based on the line of thinking most of you guys carry, based on the Norris and Camacho fights (40 years old, hurt then KO'd), Ray Leonard beats virtually no one in mythical matchups.

 

He should have lost the second one, in my opinion

In the Wright fights, I don't see Mosley coming on... I see Wright coasting to the finish

 

yeah, Shane MADE those fights but against both men he proved largely impotent and looked completely unwilling to take real risks

 

And I am not talking about Shane in the Pacquiao fight, I am talking about him in his prime against Forrest and Wright, comepletely unable to alter the outcome, and showing no real fire, no willingness to go for broke

Ray Leonard fought Camacho and Norris as a shot old man, the difference is he proved to have not just the skills, but the FIRE of a great fighter... Mosley never had that

 

Pacquiao has it.

 

Again...that's untrue. Did you see Ray's fight with Kevin Howard? Wasn't exactly titilating stuff.

Let's be honest here, Leonard is a top 20 all-time great fighter. It's not realistic to expect most fighters to show what he showed in his career.

Say what you want but Shane has fought everyone he could have in his era and beyond. I'd say Shane vs Mayweather and Pacquiao wasn't that far off what was left of Leonard when Leonard fought Norris. In fact, Shane was older than Ray when Ray fought Norris...plus...Mayweather and Pac were more highly regarded than Norris was at the time.

Anyway, you're talking about one fight as a means to classify Shane's entire career. That's extremely nearsighted. If you're not a fan, that's fine. Still it's wrong.

Lastly, you're talking about Mosley vs two of the worst possible style matchups possible. Who has looked good or been in a good fight with Winky Wright?

 

he certainly does

 

I'm talking about SEVERAL fights

And there are guys who BEAT Winky Wright and Vernon Forrest...

As for Leonard vs. Kevin Howard, you are talking about a guy coming out of retirement... and how did that fight end, again? Mosley would have risen from the knockdown and survived... Leonard got up and WON

It doesn't even have to be Leonard, there are fighters who are far inferior to Leonard who fought back from adversity to win... I never saw Mosley win a fight in which he was hurt

 

how many fights have you seen him hurt in?

 

while Wright is coasting what is shane doing? Standing with his arms at his side?

:doh:

By this logic, one could say they didn't see Winky winning as much as Shane was coasting.

A silly thing to say.

 

Shane said Vargas hurt him in their first match. Said Vargas hit him early in the fight and his head and ears were ringing the rest of the fight.

Someone asked him to compare Oscar's power to Nando's and Shane said Oscar is a sharp puncher whereas Vargas had more thudding power. Let me guess, this doesn't count because you couldn't visibly tell.

You do realize that fighters get hurt even in fights they dominate, right? Roy Jones said he doesn't recall anything after the second round of the Richard Hall fight. Said Hall hit him with a shot then he blacked out. Thomas Hauser wrote about it.

For the record, after the rematch...Forrest could barely walk and needed help getting to and off the dias. Was badly hurt to the body....Shane on the other hand walked around, shook hands and signed autographs for over an hour. Based on your theory, Forrest must be elevated.

Same is true for Hopkins after he beat Trinidad. Afterward, Hopkins was so hurt from body shots he couldn't dress himself and needed help putting on his pants. However, based on the fight you wouldn't have thought Hopkins would have had those kinds of issues...right?

Lastly, I forget where it was but recently Tyson talked about the second Rudduck fight and how Rudduck "kicked his ass." We all saw Mike fuck up Rudduck and yet Mike said that after that fight he didn't want to fight anymore.

 

thorwing swats at WInky's hips, that's what he was "doing", that was him "coming on"

 

You seem to be forgetting that Hopkins, Tyson and Forrest WON those fights

As for fighters talking about how hard their opponents punch or who hurt them, you could write several books about how meaningless and biased these testimonials are...

Don't talk down to me about "you don't seem to be aware..." , I am well aware... the bottom line is that Mosley is hideously overrated as this "warrior" fighter... Saad Muhammad was a warrior, Mosley was a durable guy who got shy when he took some real heat

 

Did Sly hack your account or have you read his handbook on how to respond when you've run out of a proper reply.

I clearly used those as examples of guys who won fights they were hurt in despite it not being obvious.

Secondly, perhaps you've got a point. It's silly to take the word of guys who won the fight even if it does them no benefit to admit they'd been hurt. Usually, that's reserved for the guy who lost the fight but I'm sure you've worked out a matrix or a spreadsheet to properly assess when a guy is or isn't hurt.

Look, if you dislike Mosley I've got no issue with that. Certainly your perogative.

"However"

These swiss cheese arguments of yours don't support your case.

 

The part in bold surprises me. Interesting.

 

Mosley WON the Vargas fight, what are you talking about?

The arguments are not swiss cheese... Mosley's tacit response to adversity and his low boxing IQ should be obvious from watching his career... he's hideously overrated

We aren't talking about a guy who people think could beat Tony "The Tiger" Lopez , we are talking about a guy that some loonies think could beat ROBERTO DURAN... Context is everything, here

The Idea of Mosley dealing well with getting caught with heavy lead right hands, shoulder butts and left hooks to the liver from a sneering opponent vastly more technically skilled than he is absurd... that is what I am getting at... Mosley isn't being propped up as a pretty good fighter, he's being propped up as a GREAT fighter...

 

mosley would give duran all he could handle at any weight. to suggest duran would dominate is foolish. then again i dont really take anything cdogg says seriously regarding mosley. his bias is enormous.

 

How is it foolish? Mosley was entirely one-dimensional and relied on hand speed for basically everything... he had no plan B, his defense was to jump straight back (a terrible idea against Duran, right hands all day) ... the difference in skill between the two is enormous

 

Quick recap...

CDogg - I've never seen Mosley win a fight he's been hurt in

Reply - Mosley said Vargas hurt him

CDogg Reply - As for fighters talking about how hard their opponents punch or who hurt them, you could write several books about how meaningless and biased these testimonials are...

Am I the only one seeing how he's talking in circle?

You say Mosley hasn't won a fight he's been hurt in, I offer the Vargas fight, your reply is to say fighter testimonials are meaningless THEN reply that Mosley won the Vargas fight.

Am I to assume you're now conceding the point or are you falling back on reply #1 that fighter testimonials are meaningless.

You're talking in circles. Taken straight out of Sly's playbook. Well done.

As said, I've got no issue with your not being a Mosley fan but these responses of yours are laughable.

 

So because Mosley SAID he was hurt, that's just the end of it, then?

Where did this happen... where did Mosley appear hurt to you in that fight?

 

Common sense says he's the best person to guage if he was or wasn't hurt or if Vargas' punches left his ears ringing...common sense says Shane's the best guy to comment.

"However"

You seen to have a greater insight on the topic; therefore, the burden of proof is on you to determine how/if Shane was hurt. I don't claim to have such ability; therefore, I take him at his word.

Were you born with the ability to sense or feel others pain? :stir:

If Shane said the punches hurt or buzzed him take him at his word. Period. "However" since it doesn't fit within your line of reasoning the words of the affected party are discounted.

Got it.

 

unless you just started following boxing yesterday (which I know is NOT the case) surely you are aware that fighters are NOTORIOUS for lauding the attributes of fighters they DEFEATED and exaggerating the adversity they faced in VICTORY... while they downplay fighters who beat them or visibly hurt them and make excuses... this has been happening since the beginning of the sport... we could list 100 examples of it

I do not "take a fighter's word for it" ever, regardless of whether it helps my argument

 

Let's see your list of 100.