Americas Missing Middlweights!!!!

Why do you insist on making this more complicated than it has to be?

 

It's a mess, but it's also a two-man race. You can't possibly argue that Berto, Senchenko or... whoever the hell is IBF champ these days, stands in the way of the Pac-Mayweather winner rightfully earning universal recognition.

It's not like 168, where Ward-Froch winner needs to face Bute, or Ward-Bute winner needs to face Froch, etc. Those guys have earned their keep (though Bute is getting a bit of a free pass these days).

Berto and Senchenko, while boasting potential, have not earned the belts they carry (especially Berto). Neither have a significant enough win at welterweight to suggest that they deserve to rate any better than best of the rest. I can't possibly see how anyone can argue otherwise.

 

Thats putting the cart ahead of the horse, Jake.

Let Floyd and Manny fight first.

It would not be apt for anyone to complain about a lack of recognition as long as that condition-precedent is outstanding.


Then we can apportion universal recognition accordingly. ::

 

The present standing of Bute in most rankings demonstrates everything that is wrong with boxing right now IMHO.

Here is a guy who chose to sit on the side-lines whilst the entire rest of the top guys at 168 signed themselves up for a new, untried tourney against each other. The best fighting the best on a regular basis. when the best fighters fight the other best fighters, there will be some wins and some loses, some close, controversial stuff and some impressive, emphatic stuff.

Let's take Froch, for the sake of argument. In his last five fights, he is:

- W12 Pascal (clear, exciting win against bloke who is now 175lb champ beating p4p guy in Dawson for the marbles)
- W KO12 Taylor (Super Six contender away from home in his first defence)
- W12 Dirrell (close, apparently controversial and horrible fight at home against man rated 2nd at 168 by Boxrec and ranked top five by all creible sources)
- L12 Kessler (close, debatable loss away from home in a cracking fight to multiple champ ranked top five by all credible sources)
- W12 Abraham (neutral ground, clear, dominant win over two-weight champ ranked top eight by all credible sources)

In practically the same time span, Lucian Bute has:

- W12 Andrade (pathetic home-town refereeing saved him from a last round KTFO)
- W KO4 Zuniga (routine win over average middleweight turned supermiddle)
- W KO4 Andrade (career defining win over noted gatekeeper who is getting on a bit)
- W KO3 Mirdana (routine win over mouthy, useless scrub who loses spectacularly every time he fights anyone decent)
- W KO9 Brinkley (routine win over scrub notable for being on a reality TV show)

Yet Bute is ranked no.1 at 168 by Boxrec, 2 places ahead of Froch, 2nd by The Ring ahead of Froch in third and 1st by Boxing Monthly, three places ahead of Froch.

How the FUCK did this happen? Oh yeah, Bute is undefeated and has looked impressive in his last few fights...

MTF :shit::shit::shit:

 

For what it's worth, we have Froch at #2, right behind Ward. I believe Bute is ranked #3.

 

I couldn't have Bute anywhere near the top five. His claim to be near the top of 168 is about as spurious as Berto's is at 147. They are both paper titlists who have made a career and a sparkly unbeaten record by fighting absolutely no-one ranked in the top five of their division by any credible source.

Bute, though, is worse IMHO, because he was offered a Super-Six spot (at least according to Froch just after the whole thing was announced) and he refused, preferring instead to let everyone else beat shit out of each other (Taylor battered into retirement, Kessler may not fight again, Abraham has lost the aura of his murderous punching, Froch lost his unbeaten record etc etc) whilst he sat on the sidelines, playing the 'I'm fighting the best opponents I can until the super-Six is finished' card whilst climbing steadily up the rankings to the top, or very near to the top, of the tree.

Fuck Bute.

MTF

 

Amen.

Bute should be #3.

 

No.3 is a legit ranking for Bute, but he should not be ranked ahead of Ward and Froch. He has beaten some credible opponents. I would not argue if somebody had Kessler and Dirrell ahead of him as well.

What is more annoying is when American writers rank European fighters they have never seen based on holding an alphabet belt or having an undefeated records.

 

Yes, 3 is fair for Bute, but he is a world removed in terms of merit and achievement from Froch, whom, in my opinion, had done more than either Bute or Ward.

 

That was simplifying it.

 

I agree it's a two-man race at W right now, but as time moves on it's foreseeable that someone else's claim can strengthen, such as Berto or Senchenko and mess up the 2 man race. Sort of how Abraham's claim was gaining traction, imo, at Middleweight.

168 gets messy if Froch beats Ward because then Froch woudl have the best claim to being the champ, but Kessler would have a win over Froch that isn't even cold, yet. And then there's Bute.

 

Rankings and claims to being the champion are separate things.

If you think Bute would beat every other SM, he should be ranked #1.

Basing rankings on spots being 'earned' is more appropriate for sanctioning bodies because their belt is something to be attained and it fits into the scheme of having lesser titles as you move up the food chain.

I suppose if you clarify that your 'rankings' are based on x, y, and z you can do what you want, but I just have an inherent problem ranking one fighter above another when you believe the lower rated fighters is actually better.

 

This is getting needlessly complex. Mayweather is the Champion at WW.

 

The absolute BEST possible ranking you could give Bute is five IMHO. There is no case for him to be ahead of Kessler, Ward, Froch and Dirrell (and I HATE Dirrell with the fire of a thousand sun's). His stand out wins are against Bika and Andrade, and he needed some of the most corrupt/incompetent refereeing ever seen to save him against Andrade who is, with the best will in the world, tough, game and deeply average. He has precisely ZERO wins against world class opponents because he chose to sit in Canada and milk his bauble whilst all the world class fighters beat each other to a pulp.

Fuck Bute

MTF

 

It is a sad state of affairs when the champion seems predisposed to going to jail rather than fighting his most pre-eminent opponent...

MTF

 

I agree with that part. However, you're speaking strictly in hypothetical terms.

Berto is presently negotiating a fight with Victor Ortiz. A win there isn't going to enhance his WW standing any. His Q rating, maybe, but not where he ranks as a welterweight.

Senchenko has one win that even shows up on the radar, when he beat Nuzhnenko (sp?).

They both have a long way to go before disturbing the peace.

You're correct on the 168 part, my point there being that the claimants to the top spot rely on more than merely toting alphabet hardware. For example, a win over Steiglitz isn't necessary for any of those gents to eventually stake a claim as the division's best, whereas he desperately needs to beat at least one of them in order to warrant consideration.

At 147, the only thing that anyone other than Pac or Floyd bring to the discussion is alphabet hardware.

 

You spelled his name wrong again. :kick: ::

It´s Stieglitz.

 

Welterweight has been a mess since 1999, when the division was hurled into disarray by the utterly farcical Foot Race Of The Century between Tito and Oscar. Both men soon departed the division, but not before Oscar dropped a decision to former lightweight and self-confessed cheat, Shane Mosley. Who then dropped a decision or two to Vernon Forrest, who surrendered the title to Mayorga, who lost to Stinks who......................:shit:

 

WHat does that make Pacquaio?

 

A contender for his crown.

 

Doubtless, MTF, doubtless. Nevertheless, he did beat Mosley.