Andre Ward vs. Marvin Johnson

I don't understand how people can't or won't see this... The skill level, the depth are just vastly superior... It's not quite delusion on the Ramonza level, but it is definitely willful refusal to see what is obvious

 

:nono: you take that shit back

 

Tell that to Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pac, JM Marquez, Guillermo Rigondeaux, Nonito Donaire, Adrien Broner, Andre Ward & Others....

These are CONTEMPORARY Fighters who Would've Been Successful in ANY Era, Bro...They're NOT Vastly Inferior to ANY Fighters from ANY Era:nono:...

REED Doesn't have "Good NEW Days" Bias @ All, REED is Simply OBJECTIVE Enough to Take a SINGULAR Look @ Each Guy, in a Mythical Matchup...Shit, Why even have this Fucking Forum if EVERY Fight can Be Decided by What ERA a Guy Boxed in???...

YOUR Way of Thinking Lead to Old Timers ASSuming a Young Cassius Clay Would've Gotten MURDERED by the Likes of Dempsey or Marciano, Back in the Day...



REED:hammert:

 

Bullshit

you are confusing objective observation with nostalgia

You are confusing what I am saying or Hut is saying with the kind of rose-colored bullshit that is the stock and trade of the Bert Sugars and Monte Cocks of the world

How can you say Andre Ward would have been great in any era when the best guy he has beaten is Carl fucking Froch, basically a willing target? Adrien Broner? Adrien Broner's best win is who exactly, Demarco? Demarco would be on early days ESPN in 1981 if he was lucky, he's absolute shit... in this era, he's a contender... You are already anointing these guys based off of what exactly? Being undefeated? Rigondeaux and Donaire are terrific, but then again the lighter weight classes haven't really fallen off to anywhere near the level that the larger classes have, so it makes sense that they would be good

Mayweather, Marquez and Pacquiao have been fighting since the 1990s, they are hardly new school

What does it say that of the 7 guys you mentioned, three are over 30 (Marquez is damned near 40), one has fought nobody worth a damn (Broner) and one's best opponents are completely ordinary (Ward)? All of them fight above 126 pounds... The Three old ones sit at or near the summit of the Welterweight division, despite one starting out at 130, one starting out at 118 and the other starting out at 112 and all being of an advanced (boxing wise) age... in any previous era after the 1930s, they would have been knocked off their perches by someone younger and bigger... Where are the fighters? Bernard Hopkins has the stamina to throw about 12 punches per round and is almost FIFTY YEARS OLD and he is beating young men at 175 pounds by doing nothing other than flashing some moves and tricks that were FUCKING COMMONPLACE 30 years ago... How do you think Bernard does against Marvin Johnson? He gets fucking chased out of the ring, that's what... He'd be on a stretcher against the likes of Saad, Spinks, EMM, Qawi... He'd be a non-entity... He's not Archie Moore, he isn't an old man physically defying age, showing the reflexes and power that he did when he was 29... He's an old man who needs to fight at a snail's pace who is able to get away with doing it because the best guys at 175 pounds SUCK... Chad Dawson's crowning achievement is basically outworking this guy to win an ugly decision. Chad Dawson is the second biggest scalp on Andre Ward's dance card, and probably weight drained at that. Eddie Davis would beat Chad Dawson's ass. Lotte Mwale could probably beat him.

The middle and higher weight classes are wastelands right now, have been for a good decade and they aren't getting any better... Don't confuse exciting fights with good fighters... Last night's welterweight title fight was fantastic... Lloyd Honeyghan would beat either of those guys (to pick an ordinary belt holder from the 1980s)... I'd bet everything I own on it

I love the sport, I will always watch because I like a good match... But I am not going to delude myself into thinking that the 30 something Floyd Mayweather could hang with a 20 something vintage Donald Curry... He couldn't... Mayweather at 130-135 and Pac-Man at 122-130, Marquez at 126, Hopkins at 160 may be the last guys to come down the pike I would rate as all-timers or damned near all-timers at their respective weights... The winner of Donaire/Rigondeaux could find himself included at his particular weight as well (but as I said, the lower classes have not deteriorated to anywhere near the same degree, because the traditional talent suppliers have CONTINUED to produce quality fighters) ... I suspect we will continue to see great fighters south of 130... The higher weights? Not a chance... the last decade has been miserable in terms of the guys coming up.

 

mountme* cox

 

Cdogg makes a solid case here.

 

Agreed. Reed's no dummy, but cdogg is on point with the last post. People will continue to debate eras, but sometimes one can actually make a better case than the other.

 

I love REED, he's one of my favorite folks here

I believe what I believe and he believes what he does and I doubt we will change each others minds

But I will ask Brother REED this question...







Is Ward's shit paid for???:mj:

 

Thanks to Brother S_D and Brother CK for the props

 

clogg is all sentimental since he's wasted for his peoples holiday

 

:laughing:

 

+1000, excellent post


also, LOL@neil's post

 

But that's just It, Bro, You & Hut ARE Basically Pulling the Bert Sugar Routine...You Both CATEGORICALLY Define Today's Era as INFERIOR...Regardless Who's CURRENTLY Fighting in this Era, Regardless Who Can Potentially Arrive on the Scene, You BOTH ALREADY have it Set in your Minds that Today's Era is INFERIOR...

Instead of Recognizing Broner's TALENT, You're Nitpicking his Resume...Nevermind that he's What, 23 & will Undoubtedly Fight Another 20-30 Times Before it's All Said & Done???...Your Mind's ALREADY Made Up on Broner, Huh???...You're Doing Likewise w/Ward, who's just ENTERING his Prime...What Ward did in the Super 6 is Impressive No Matter WHAT Era it Occurred In...& he'll Fight Another 15-20 Times Before it's All Said & Done...

That's PRECISELY the Type of Shit that Bert Sugar & Other Old Farts Pulled...By No Means is REED Annointing Broner or Ward, but What We've Seen From them DESERVES CLOSER Examination than YOU'RE Willing to Give them...

Like it or Not, Floyd, Pac & Marquez (Regardless what their Ages are) are CONTEMPORARY Fighters, the Type of Guys YOU'RE Saying are INFERIOR to Guys from the 80's & Earlier Eras...Since YOU'VE Drawn the Line in the Sand, You CAN'T Have it Both Ways...Either You Stand by your Point, or Maybe, Just MAYBE REED is Right; There ARE Guys of TODAY who Could SUCCESSFULLY Ply their Trade in ANY Era, which Makes it POINTLESS to Heap Superiority Upon ANY Other Era, Right???...

If You Merely Pointed Out a Particular DIVISION Being Better (Which Explains why the Pac's & Marquez's can Successfully Move Up Weights), REED would Agree, but You've Defiantly Said FIGHTERS (Across the Board) Were Better Back Then....

REED's Gotta Call BULLSHIT...Why???...Because there's NOfuckingWAY of PROVING It...

Bernard Hopkins???...He's on Performance Enhancing Drugs (& he CAREFULLY Selects the Opponents he KNOWS he Can Beat)...But let's NOT Pretend that Archie Moore WASN'T Already DEFYING Age in his Day (or Jersey Joe Walcott)...Moore was a Geriatric, Undersized Heavyweight who Very Nearly Beat a PRIME Rocky Marciano...What does that Say for THAT Era???...George Foreman Beat Moorer, who Beat Holyfield...What Does that Say for THAT Era???...OLDER Boxers have ALWAYS Been Around the Game...Bernard ISN'T New or Avant Garde...

"Chased Out of the Ring", "Leave on a Stretcher"....It's as if You've Flipped Thru a Book of Bert Sugar Quotes to Describe How You'd See a Mythical Matchup Play Out...& 100% of the Time, You Favor the Guy from the Bygone Era...That's BIAS w/Out a Doubt, Bro...



REED:num:

 

It's All Good, C-Doggy Dogg; This is a RESPECTFUL Debate...Disagreeing ISN'T the Same as Disrespecting...

To Answer Your Question, NO All of Wards Shit AIN'T Paid For...That's Why he Can't Be Pound for Pound Right Now...REED Guarantees Broner's' Shit is Paid For Though, Cause he Got Money May CO-SIGNING on his Shit....Floyd Got Houses, Cars, Jewelry & Broner Got Floyd...



REED:fightme:

 

I have it on good authority that BRONER HAS A MOTHERFUCKING FLIP PHONE!!!

 

Floyd, Pac & Marquez may be contemporary fighters but they are not at their peaks, cdogg's point is that in many (if not most) bygone eras, by now a younger challenger (a young, hungry lion, if you will) would have knocked them off their thrones, PEDs or no PEDs.

 

Exactly

and the younger ones are on PEDs as well, so its a wash

 

The Same Way a Young, Hungry Lion Knocked Off Duran???...Oh, Wait, Duran was in MEANINGFUL Fights Until he was Damn Near 40...The Same Way a Young, Hungry Jersey Joe Walcott Knocked Off Joe Louis, but Got Robbed???...Oh, Wait, the OLD Louis KO'ed the Young, Hungry Walcott in their Very next Bout...

The Same way a Young, Hungry Lion like Ezzard Charles was KO'ed by Walcott, After Besting him just 1 Fight Prior???...

Let's NOT Pretend Bernard Hopkins is the 1st Guy to Have Success when he Should Be in an Old Folks Home...The "Young, Hungry Lion" Theory you Speak of ISN'T Absolute...




REED:nono:

 

He's the first guy to have consistent success by throwing 12 punches per round and amazing his young dumb opponents with techniques that were par for the course 30 years ago, man

 

Archie Moore was NEVER Known for Volume Punching or Fast Paced Bouts Either, Bro...Hopkins & the Ol' Mongoose were More SIMILAR than Dissimilar, in REED's Honest Opinion...



REED:dunno:

 

& REED Knows for a Fucking FACT, Archie Moore's Shit was NEVER Paid For!!!!!.....




REED:nono:

 

Archie Mo' could knock a muthafucka dead with one punch. hopkins, not so much

 

It's Ah'Chee Mo'....



REED:cheer:

 

Archie Moore have the Internets... in 1957!!! Motherfucker have the internets before anybody!

 

Ah'Chee Mo' Don't Know 'Nothin 'Bout 'dem Damn ComPOOTers....



REED:nono:

 

:bears:

 

He and Duke Ellington has "The Cash Committee"... come on, REED, STOP LYIN' to the people!

 

Hut knows!

 

archie mo' would knock out that jughead ward

 

no doubt