BigDawg...You asked why (OBAMA)

TFK

 

for just one example, healthcare

if you believe healthcare costs rise due to lack of govt intervention then you dont really have a clue

and thats a fact

 

First off ... I've already proven , NO ONE is going to take our troops out of the Middle East. We're building a fortified city there. The Dems have given BushCo everything and then some when they had ample opportunity to stop things in their tracks. Obama votes present whenever there's an important vote then later tells everyone what they want to hear. He's flip flopped on the middle east more than a fish out of water. His top advisor for the M.E. clearly has a plan for the Middle East and it doesn't include getting out any time soon. Obama want's to negotiate with terrorists , suggests we might bomb Pakistan , and has changed his timeline on any attempt at getting out of Iraq a number of times.

All talk ... he's going to take away tax breaks for everyone. Spend more and wants to add a global tax onto America paid to the UN.

Not only that. Obama's budget the largest proposed by any of the candidates.

What taxes ? The ones he wants to add ... almost double? His tax plan is MORE TAXES by a large margin.

Obama is the whore of special interests and lobby groups. His ties to numerous big corps is well known. He won't do shit against them. TALK that's what you'll get.

They all have said that ... look where we are now.

Yeah spend more money we don't have in a nation going bankrupt for nationalized healthcare that will suck more than it already does. Brilliant plan!

Not that a candidate that's no longer running has anything to do with this ... but since that seems to be the Obamanites best tactic ... Ron Paul has thousands of pages outlining all his ideas. Just about everyone of them has
proven to be true. Unlike Obama he staunchly opposed the war. He didn't wait to see which way it would go and what was popular to get ahead. He speaks out time and again when others are afraid to because they're worried about popular opinion. His words far exceed your little picks and everyone with a brain knows this to be true.

There is absolutely no reason we couldn't simply end the war and pull out of Iraq. The longer we stay the more enemies the USA is making and the more likely the manufactured OIL crisis will spin out of control.

Pull them out and start taking care of business at home in a country falling apart. Instead we have an estimated 2-3 trillion in current and future obligations from this war ... and growing , while simultaneously we have the housing , credit , oil , entitlements, food and other crisis here at our doorstep.

No one knows healthcare better than Paul ... you just want the carebear healthcare plan of Obama ... not the truth.

Finally , only a fool would not want to put an end to the IRS and make MASSIVE cuts in spending. All the elimination of the IRS does is cut ONE TAX . There's a 1000 others in the pot including the hidden one. INFLATION through increase of the money supply that has cut the value of our bank accounts in half in the last 8 years.

But since you like Obama , I guess you see no reason for the government to cut spending .... Spend MORE !!! We're not broke yet!

 

This is from Obama's website....

Considering all the bases we have built or are building there, it's a little late for that.

But I thought he was bringing our troops home? I guess that's a lie.

IF Al-Qaeda builds a base in Iraq? IF? Uhhhh....who does he think we've been fighting over there?


Obama is clueless. Clueless.

I also checked out his 'energy policy' and nowhere does it mention anything about drilling for more oil, uncapping any wells, building more nuclear plants, or anything that would add even one ounce of energy to this country.

The only 'solution' I've heard Obama mention about energy is to tax the oil companies, which will only result in higher gas prices. The government already makes more per gallon of gas then gas station owners, so why give them even more?

And why should I vote for Obama again? Change? I see a lot of potential for change. Change for the worse.

TFK

 

Economies of scale. That's the thinking behind socialization of healthcare. Right or wrong, I don't know, personnally I think it's the latter but I think the State has to furnish a minimum of healthcare services for those that will never be able to get some (disabled, old workers that lost their job but can't really get a new one, uninsured working poors...). One important thing though, health care shouldn't become a government monopoly, even here in Canada people start to realize that people should have the choice to chose between public and private services.

 

non-sense

ever since we've had managed healthcare (we DO NOT, i repeat, DO NOT have a true free market healthcare system in this country) everything has gone down the shit

the govt basically mandated HMOs in the 70s and now look at the shit we are in, so you want more govt intervention when govt intervention is the problem in the 1st place

anytime you have a coupling of govt and corporations you wind up with corporatism, and we see how well that has served us

 

That's ok TFK, you dont share these beliefs with Obama's supporters, that's fine and I respect that. Now, you should respect the fact that some people don't have the same opinions as you and stop telling they have no reasons to vote for him. They have their reasons, you don't think they're good, fair enough.

 

the reasons they draw upon to vote for obama are whole cloth fabrications

 

Fine, if people have their reasons to vote for Obama, then they should vote for them.

Of course, those reasons can only be you want higher taxes, more spending, bigger government, higher gas prices with no solution at all to get them under control, less personal freedoms and a healthcare system that we just can't afford.

There's your change for you. And there's gonna be hope too. Lots of hope. In fact, hope may be all you have, because hope is free, and we won't be able to afford anything else.

TFK

 

lets all take a toke off the hope bong, as colbert might say

 

Please cut that bullshit if you want to debate with me, we're adults, no need for that. I'm not too versed in the US healthcare system and its problems, what I do know is that we have socialized healthcare here, centrally planned, and it works fine. Of course it has its shortcomings, but I think health isn't a good like another one. Among other things, it has externalities, basically, if you choose, or simply can't get proper health care, other people might suffer from your condition and even get sick themselves. The governement has at least to make sure no easily curable disease spreads because people can't pay for the appropriate drugs.

And Healthcare will NEVER be a perfectly working free market, it's impossible. A true free market has to internalize all costs to be really "perfect", here it's almost impossible. Second, information must be perfectly symmetric. In the case of healthcare, the one that CAN provide a diagnostic is also the same that will choose the cure, people are rarely informed enough to be able judge wether what they get is really appropriate, the only thing they can rely on is the reputation of the clinic where they are, if they have the choice, which isn't always the case. Because of these market imperfections, there's ground for regulation, whether you like it or not. Now, should it be totally socialised? I don't think so, but I don't think that's Obama's proposition either.

 

They're based on beliefs, just like your reasons. Stop thinking you're smarter than everyone.

 

Dude, we have a way more socialised economy here than in the US and nobody's dead, crime rates are low, people live well and long. Of course there are problems with more left leaning policies, and that's why I said Obama's economic proposition are the ones I have some problem with, but I think you're over estimating the effect of government intervention on growth and the general state of the economy. As long as free markets, free trade and individual freedom exist, there's not much to worry about. During the great depression markets were way freeer than now, it was the "laissez-faire" era, and all these big governments we see now are pretty much a consequence of that big traumatism. Right winger tend to forget that. Also, the 30 glorious, and era of unprecendented and unmatched non stop growth, happened during an era of heavy government intervention, right wingers forget that too.

 

how does obama plan to lower healthcare costs?

since medicaid and medicare are related to healthcare how does obama plan to sustain those?

im interested to see what the answer is

 

Obama wants to negotiate with terrorists, yes just like all presidents have and done.

And I am glad you picked good reasons to not vote for obama, trying to imply he was muslim because of what he wore for a photo op on a trip to an african country, that was just fuckin stupid.

 

I don't know dude, I'm not Obama's economical adviser. All I know is he plans to interve to help those that have no access to healthcare, or proper healthcare. :dunno: But there's one thing I know, drugs costs are almost growing geometrically and are taking a higher proportion of health expenditures with each year that passes, so a policy of group buying might put a pressure on pharmaceutical companies to lower their prices. Second, there's nothing better than prevention to lower the healthcare costs.

 

you dont know.... yet your going to vote for him

not really a resounding endorsement id say

intervention doesnt work, itll only lead to higher costs, a reduction is competition, a reduction in quality, etc etc

besides, if your worried about costs (of anything) then id think youd want to take a look at the monetary policy and inflation, but obama has nothing to say on that front, only the status quo, the same thing mccain says, which is to leave it in the hands of the federal reserve

 

hows this sounds for a sensible plan:

Making all medical expenses tax deductible.
Eliminating federal regulations that discourage small businesses from providing coverage.
Giving doctors the freedom to collectively negotiate with insurance companies and drive down the cost of medical care.
Making every American eligible for a Health Savings Account (HSA), and removing the requirement that individuals must obtain a high-deductible insurance policy before opening an HSA.
Reform licensure requirements so that pharmacists and nurses can perform some basic functions to increase access to care and lower costs.

 

You can't compare the United States and Canada. It's apples and oranges. What works for Canada may not work in the US, and Vice Versa.

Plus, if you're happy with socialism, good for you. But I want no part of it.

TFK

 

I'm not american dude, I follow all this with interest but I don't get into the details, I'm not involved enough. :dunno:

 

Then why are perscriptions(and healthcare) so cheap everywhere else? Why would the prices go up ONLY in America while they're WAY down everywhere else?

 

You're right, but Canada isn't a socialist country, it HAS some socialist programs, but markets are free, people can choose what they'll buy. We got the better of the two worlds! :hammert:

 

I like your plan dude. Some good ideas here.

 

socialism and free markets are absolutely dichotomous

 

its not my plan, its ron paul's plan, you know the only guy who was actually a real medical doctor

funny how people think his ideas are good when you dont attach his name to it

 

I think that's a common thread among Obama bashers at every site on the internet that I frequent. It's amazing how arrogant these people are.

 

Stop it Adogg ... you're ruining Arby's bogus argument that Paul's plan amounts to "American's healthcare is just like cell phones."

 

the real question is what are these beliefs based on?

i dont see how anyone can come to a solid conclusion on obama when he goes and says things that are absolutely contradictory to one another

 

i bet if i had attached his name 1st everyone would have thought the ideas were terrible, sans his name though, they are real good

go figure

 

That's what libertarian leaning people think, and I respect that. Personnally, I think real free markets is a chimera, a nice conceptual tool that doesn't have much to do with reality. Don't get me wrong though, I think most markets should be left alone, unless there's some form of collusion to raise prices unfairly. But at the same time, I think some stuff is too important to let markets dictate the people what they'll be able to get. Among others : Security (Police and Army) and Healthcare are sectors where government has the responsibility to intervene and regulate.