BOXING 101: Explain what a TRUE, ie., OPTIMAL Weight Class or Weight Range Is???...

It's NOT as Cut & Dried as What the SCALE Says, Bro...NEVER Has Been...

So Because Miguel Cotto Weighed 1 Lb Over Jr. Middle for 1 Fight in his Life, he's All of a Sudden Just as Much of a GENUINE, AUTHENTIC Middleweight as Marvin Hagler was???...BALDERDASH!!!...

Using Muzse's Example from Yesterday, is Fernando Vargas All of a Sudden a TRUE Heavyweight, if His Fat Ass Has to Weigh-In Tomorrow???...

So You've NEVER Seen, Heard or Used the Phrase "Maturing Into the Weight" or "Growing Into the Weight Class", Huh???...If So, REED Finds that VERY Hard to Believe...

So if Cotto Defends the Title Against Tim Bradley, that's a TRUE Middleweight Fight, as Loooooooooong as they're Both '55-'60???...




REED::

 

Put it Like This, there's MORE to Being a MIDDLEWEIGHT, than Simply Weighing 155-160lbs...




REED:hammert:

 

I have stated from the beginning that I do not believe Middleweight is Cotto's best weight

 

who is the middleweight champion of the world right now?

 

There's 2 or 3 of them, if REED's Not Mistaken...The BEST Middleweight in the World is GGG...




REED:hammert:

 

Sure. But irrelevant when he claims to be 'middleweight champion of the world'. He isn't a middleweight? Fine. Give up the belt and stop claiming to be the middleweight champion of planet earth.

 

seriously... I'm amazed this is flying over people's heads

 

Maybe we should just give up the concept of titles and champions all together.

 

Pipe down. Cotto hasn't even been champion for 60 days. More importantly hasn't announced his next fight.

 

It is rather amusing this silly discussion has become this epic :kidcool:

 

"It is preposterous to expect the middleweight champion of the world to fight middleweights!"

Pretty much the position I have been arguing against

 

I'm not criticizing him. :dunno: As you say, he hasn't done anything yet.

 

When EXACTLY has Cotto Beaten his Chest & Boldly Claimed, "I'm THE Middleweight Champion of the World!"???...

You're Acting like he's RUBBING Something in People's Faces, When he HASN'T...

He Took a RISK, Moving Up to a Weight Class he has NOfuckingBUSINESS Being In & it Paid Off...Now, he's Gonna Cash In w/1-2 Hefty Purses, like EVERY OTHER Undersized, Marketable Fighter Has Done, @ this Phase of their Career...

But Guys like YOU Feel as if he's STUNTING GGG's Growth or Something, Which is Where this ALL Stems From...




REED::

 

THIS...

He's Been Champion for 5 Minutes & Golovkin Groupies are ALREADY Outraged Their Teen Idol Probably WON'T Be in Cotto's Plans...




REED:hammert:

 

Based on YOUR "Logic", if Cotto Gets Tim Bradley or Any Other Current SUB-160 lb'der to Move Up & Weigh In No Lower than '55, he'll Then Be Facing Middleweights...

Would Everything Be Cool Then???...




REED::

 

I'm probably the biggest non Rican Cotto fan on this board, and as such I DON'T want him to fight Gaybox, my ping on this has nothing to do with Gaybox.

While I agree Cotto is very undersized at middleweight and should move back down to 154, my position is that if he holds the lineal middleweight title, it's his duty to fight anyone, ie the best fighters in the division.

If not we really should just do away with the whole concept of champions.

To me, being a champion is about defending that title against the very best in the division.

 

Would undersized Floyd Patterson have been right to listen to Cus & keep fighting scrubs and 175ers while calling himself 'heavyweight champ of the world'? Would that have been honourable, in the spirit of the title he held & whatnot?

 

Exactly. Whats the point? 'Oh the champ can't beat this guy, you can't expect him to fight him!'

 

True Weight is that range of weight{s} you can make without de-optimizing any of what a reasonable boxing fan would regard as the strong points of the boxer in question. By necessary corollary, true weight would have to exclude any weight range which sees your opponents strong points unnecessarily aggrandized.

Therefore, Roberto Duran is a true Welterweight vs Sugar Ray Leonard but not , for example, against Hearns.

And so on and so forth.

None of this of course precludes fighting the fucking champ.

If Rocky Marciano were about today, he would not be a true heavyweight {his skills are eroded above 200lbs and his skills are maximized at 190-200, and dudes at 240 are just going to punish him for it} but if he wanted to be the heavyweight Champion, he would have to take that risk.

If Floyd fought Golovking. he would have to be regarded as "the smaller man", but its immaterial, if he wants to be king at 160

 

Only Problem Is, REED's NEVER Seen You as "VOCAL" about it, Until an Undersized, Marketable Guy Moved Into GGG's Division & WON a Title...

REED's Honestly NEVER Heard you Wax Poetic about the "Responsibility of the LINEAL Champion", Until NOW, When Conveniently, Your ManCrush is In Position to Vie for that Title...

Coincidence???...




REED:hammert:

 

Who Said Cotto Has ANY Middleweight Plans, Beyond 1-2 Bouts???...

REED's BEEN in Agreement that BEYOND 1-2 Bouts, Cotto NEEDS to Face THE Best Middleweight Opposition Out There...




REED:hammert:

 

I knew this shit was about Floyd. It always is.

 

I have to admit that I don't think Toney, Roy/ Cotto were/are true heavyweights/middleweights.

But is anybody really demanding Cotto to face Gaybox? Mex himself said he doesn't want Cotto to fight Golovkin, yet you say his mancrush on GGG forced him to think he should.

You are being a bit stubborn on the subject as well, don't ya think? ;)

 

I think this "furore" also highlights the essential myth that is the old claim that "If we get rid of the sanctioning bodies, it will cure boxing".

"Linear" and "Lineal" assertions will inevitably be used to defeat consensus opinion and allow the perversion of the title ad nauseum.

 

Roy vs Toney at 201lbs is a true heavyweight fight.

Roy vs Ruiz possibly qualifies too, as Ruiz is a former 190lbr.....

Mickey Walker vs Max Schmeling is a guy who was scared to go 15 with Tiger Flowers against a guy beat Joe Louis.

In otherwords, its not a true HW fight. Its just a fight.

 

Well, they'd be middleweights, if that's what you are getting at:scratcher:

You seem to be forgetting that you are the one who thinks it's unreasonable to expect Cotto to fight an established middleweight like Golovkin so I would imagine this type of Bradley at 160 scenario would be more palatable to you than it is to me. If he's going to fight at middleweight and wear the crown, I wanna see him fight the best contenders for his crown.

 

by definition yes, but I don't think anybody who looks soft at 160 is a true heavyweight. ::

I'm not saying Toney twelve years ago even overweight couldn't beat a lot of heavies, but not because of his size.

 

If he can't make 160 then he's a heavyweight. Just because he's a small slow fat one shouldn't matter.....if you put him in with Lennox Lewis, then you can make the case that its a farce.

Roy vs Toney is a true heavyweight fight because they are well matched at heavyweight, all things being equal, despite neither man being "true heavyweights"

A good example is Chris Byrd. For years, Byrd was a "Blown Up Middlweight". The truth of the matter was he looked skeletal when he tried to make light-heavyweight and was destroyed in a few rounds by a fighter whom he would have annihilated a few short months earlier at 200+

He was never a "Blown up Middleweight"....ever. His true weight was ALWAYS north of 175lbs. For a few years, he could get under that, but he was killing himself.

Being able to make a weight and BEING THAT WEIGHT are different things.

 

Definititely agree on Byrd. He was a true heavyweight prety much who could possibly make Cruiser but not LHW safely. But you said, Roy vs. Toney would be a heavyweight fight, despite them being not true heavies. I don't even know if we disagree on anything here... ::

 

The issue is that there is angst over a guy that the vast majority of people regard as not just the uncrowned king of 160, but also the consensus favourite against ANYONE from 154 to 160 being basically cut out of the picture by lower-weight fighters with more marketability or exposure.

Attempting to address the issue by defying a 160lb fighter to move up a division when he can CLEARLY still make 160 and be so good that he winds up effectively avoided is akin to moving in next door, playing loud music and then telling the complainants to move house.



Its a very valid angst. Golovkin is the premier fighter at 160 and anyone holding a belt should vacate or fight him. Arguments to the effect of "Who has he fought" {when they are all avoiding him} or "He should move up" {when he can make 160 and be brutally effective there} are immaterial and contrarian.