Boxing's DYING???...

I don't recall making the first assertion- the second was made in jest to draw some ire from haider steve dave. In any event, Golota was technically and physically superior to most of those guys- but he lacked the brains and the mental steel.

In any event, the thread pertains to the contention that "boxing is dying", and then the added contention that the "heavyweight division is dead"...I've referred to 5 heavyweight fights, 4 of which were pretty decent fare, and asked a simple question- show me another division which did likewise in the same period?

In the meantime, we have the prospects of David Haye vs Dereck Chisora, Tyson Fury vs David Price {If Fury's management grow some balls} Vitali vs Seth Mitchell. Wlad is penciled in to fight Mormeck- I'd prefer he nixed that and fought Deontay Wilder. Fury is fighting Martin Rogan next and Price is fighting Sexton. Fury vs Rogan figures to be entertaining for as long as it lasts. It has all the makings of a highlight reel KO with a half-blind Rogan being overwhelmed after 4 rounds. Or he could wail away and overwhelm an under-prepared Fury like he did Matt Skelton. That was a great fight. How many people in the USA watched it? Rogan vs Sexton was also decent. The division is more than holding its own when it comes to activity and exciting fights. There is no Juan Manuel Marquez vs Manny Pac in there, but its beating the other divisions in terms of lots of fights, with decent entertainment value.

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Nobody said it was the 1970's revisited- but its lots of fights that don't cost much to watch, with decent streams available for evening-time viewing in the USA. Al Bernstein no less was doing commentary on the Fury vs Chisora fight- another decent scrap from only a year ago to go with the Wlad vs Haye fight.

The heavyweights are active and need to keep it that way.

 

And he is active. If he stays active, and they get rid of some of the hyperbole and the frankly ridiculous weight/diuretic issues, then thats OK with me. Lee isn't being brought in to win but the onus is on Lee to fight and make it an occasion worthy of the name. If we get that then that's a start.

A weak era needs to fight like a weak fighter- high on activity and effort, to mask the lack of technical depth.

 

The funny thing is I get very interested everytime Chavez fights because I keep hoping they accidently put him in with someone that takes his head off.

The desire to see him exposed makes him very marketable. Strange.

 

You don't get this in any other division ::

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Yep. Why do you think Haye vs Wlad did so much money? And had Brits driving from Britain to Germany via the Ferry? To be there when "Der Big Russian" got KO'd.....and its why tickets will sell for Fury vs Rogan, cos Rogan might go blind and get put in a wheelchair.

Boxing needs more fights, more events- if it can't match previous era for quality, it has to keep up the activity levels.

How can "Boxing be Dying" when a boxing-only subscription channel was launched in the United Kingdom in December 2011 for $18 per month which has already broadcast:

1. Cotto vs Margarito
2. Vitali vs Chisora
3. Cleverly vs Bellew
4. Canelo vs Cintron
5. Chavez vs Rubio

And will show Floyd vs Cotto later this Summer.....?????

Boxing is not dying. Its injured , its wounds are infected, but it is sitting up in bed hurling insults at the nurses and doctors.

 

Oh of course - the Witherspoon/Savarese comment was just a joke! Not a reflection of your absolute distortion of the talent of the heavyweight divisions of the past. fair enough.

people saying the heavyweight division is dead, they are not referring the activity level, it's the quality of the fighters. Which is significantly less no matter how active they are in the past 5 weeks. at least that's what the statement is supposed to mean.

Aside from the Klitschko's, of course, the division is still pretty poor compared to years past, imo.

i always feel this "boxing is dying" discussion needs to be strictly limited to Stateside, too. And yes, fairly or unfairly the fact that barely any of those heavyweight fights happened in the USA is a big reason why it's dead here, and another factor in boxing's decline in the USA

 

Boxing's not dying. There's still good matchups being made.

 

Depends how you define good. Championship fights against undersized opponents and amateur careers carried out on the pro scene with more deserving fighters made to wait doesn't sound good to me.

A case could be made that the more the broader public is engaged, the more boxing becomes a joke brcause unlike us the public is intetested most of all in things non-boxing.

 

I wouldn't say "dying" as that implies permanent extinction. I would, however, say that it is currently in a coma.

 

I never distorted anything. I'm not a heavyweight boxer. I can't even fight.

Yeah but you could say that of any division. 140 today sucks the hind tit of 140 7 short years ago.

Ironically- the lack of guys boxing, and therefore the lack of fights happening- is oft quoted as the prime reason for the "collapse" of boxing in the USA. This should lend some credence to my theme that the quality of the fights don't matter- its their frequency. Its about having fights on TV and appealing to kids who are watching.

 

OK Reed, here's my stab at it. Just going for 10 years ago around this time, and 5 years ago around this time:

2002:

Fights on the horizon

Forrest v Mosley II
DLH v Vargas
Lennox vs. Tyson
MAB-Morales II

Nearly full unification at 140 with Tszyu just beating Judah a few months earlier

Klitschko's, Mayorga, Moargarito, as up and comers inserting themsevles into their respective landscapes.

Veerapol Sahaprom in his prime... nuff said (for those that don't know my affection for sahaprom fuck off it's a joke...kind of)

Ongoing Saga of the 130/135 pound division, Corrales vs. whomever, Casamayor vs. whomever, Freitas vs. whomever along with
Mayweather-Castillo at 135

RJJ was as usual contributing nothing ;) having just beaten Glenn Kelley with Clinton Woods lined up later that year!

Top P4P fighters:

Hops
RJJ
MAB
Forrest
DLH
Zoo
Morales
Floyd
Lennox
Shane
Sahaprom :)

 

5 years ago:

2007:

Fights on the horizon

Floyd vs. DLH
Hatton-Castillo with the hint of Floyd-Hatton later on
Calzaghe v Kessler
Rafa Marquez vs. Israel Vasquez (what becomes an epic trilogy)

up and comers with progress to follow are guys like Edwin Valero, and Kelley Pavlik

Pacquiao just starting his epic roll to superstardom (rematch with MAB on the way)

Ongoing Saga at 147, Cotto vs. whomever, Marg vs. whomever, P/Williams vs. whomever... and all 5 years fresher than they are now.

top P4P fighters

Floyd
Pac
JMM
Calzaghe
I/Vasquez
Cotto
Hatton
Winky
Rafa

There was Hopkins vs. Winky on the horizon too, for what that's worth (not much to me) two top 10 P4P'ers tho

You can't look at these lists and tell me you don;t think your 2012 list isn't a downgrade from the above, can you? I don;t think so. Judge for yourselves

 

i disagree on all of this. Yes you can say that 140 today is worse than 7 years ago, but the general drop in talent has been the worst with the heavyweights imo. Also coupled with the fact that the heavyweight division is MUCH more siginifcant than 140, it makes the decline much more significant to the sport. Multiplier effect of about 10.

Your last point is also false, imo. As mikE has mentioned, and has proof - there are more fights on tv in the USA now than ever. it is NOT a matter of pure quantity, it is a matter of quality fights and for the USA... the lack of quality AMERICAN fights and fighters that is killing hte sport in this country as well as the overall downgrade in quality. While I cringe to give the sports public in the States this much credit (they are in love with the UFC afterall) they are smart enough to perceive a decline in quality boxing and have tuned out as a result.

 

Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good analogy. Or maybe addiction. The addiction to the quick bucks of PPv undermining it's long term health. It feels like like these last few years are when the health complications have started to really kick in.

 

I wish John Terry was in the state boxing is in right now, put it that way

 

UFC was far closer to going under than boxing has ever been.

 

UFC's not a sport. Boxing is a sport. An organization can 'go under' with relative ease. It's difficult for a sport to 'go under'.

Starting tomorrow, no more Ping Pong. It's gone under.

 

So by comparing the original post's list vs. a similar list 5 years ago and 10 years ago, we pretty much agree that boxing has declined?

 

The general cross-divisional depth has waned, certainly. You still have some outstanding guys that we would not fear putting in against the best of yesteryear, but its thin, its 1, 2, guys per division, at the very very best.

Does that mean boxing has declined? Not necessarily- one aspect of boxing has declined- namely the boxing.

Health standards are up, medical advances are up, fighters are more cognizant of their rights and their frailties, some of them anyways, fighters are getting better deals because they can drive harder bargains, so there are positives. The sanctioning bodies do not dictate with the same strength anymore, there is no one single dominant promoter in the USA anymore. Remember when Duk Koo Kim died and Arum stood up and called for a moratorium? :: The game has been opened up to the best part of 2 billion people in the last 20 years or so. That means more revenue for fighters, more merchandising, more sales. Possibly more fighters from newer territories.

Its not dead, its not in terminal decline, but it is leaking, taking on water. Some of the new inventions and reliances, like pound-for-pound, the ridiculous emphasis on undefeatedness, etc, are harmful and deleterious and need to be got rid of.

 

I wanna (again) lay some blame at the door of the amateur scoring rules. The skill level and versatility of new pros started falling very shortly after they were introduced in the late 80s, IMO.

 

Start a thread on this topic.

I don't think I agree with your conclusion, but I do like the idea of versatility being added to the equation. I don't remember hearing that being put forth before and it adds something new to the conversation.

 

Good post. I agree on just about everything.

The whole phrase "Boxing is Dead" or "Boxing is Dying" is a very lazy phrase, and when analyzed literally it is incorrect and very unintelligent (it's a very American phrase).

However, i think if you modify it to "Declining" and "Declining in the USA" you get a lot closer to the reality. And yes as you mentioned I am only talking about the "general cross-divisional depth " and "the boxing."

That's all anyone is generally talking about when they say these things about boxing - certainly this thread. They're not talking about Medical advancements, sports science, broader talent pool, regional expansion, promotional clout and all that, which you correctly state are all improvements from years and decades past.

these threads are all about the boxing. which i still say has quite clearly declined.

 

Yes that is trueld:

 

Boxing has become inefficient. Its possible we are in a transitional state. Promoters losing powers, sanctioning bodies losing powers, means fighters can dictate more. This new relationship between marquee fighter and network, a la Floyd and HBO, is unhealthy when taken to its logical conclusion.

In a way, the network, which used to have the sole veto of particular fights, now acts as the promoter, to pass shit such as "Hungry Lions" and "Functional Weight Advantages" off on an unsuspecting public, all the time denying us what we want to see. Or, it could be that in dangling a carrot in front of us, we put up with shit for longer than we should, i.e. Cotto vs Mayweather will be bought because there is a belief that Floyd vs Pacquaio is very very close. Who is buying Pac vs Clottey or Floyd vs Ortiz? Why are they buying it? They aren't Clottey fans. The promise of greater riches, which the network could make happen in an instance is what keeps people coming back.

Basically the prospect of Floyd vs Pac is a fat cow that the broadcasters keep milking. Trinidad vs Oscar got made. Why not this?

Boxing, the actual "fighting", has declined, although the perception of the extent of its decline will differ from region to region. Most Mexicans will think boxing is doing OK. In Germany likewise. But JC Chavez couldn't live with his old man and the last German HW champ was Schemeling in theh 1930's. Yet these people are sure boxing is flying.

Britain has had its strongest run in years, but could Froch live with Eubank? Khan with Hatton? Haye with Lewis?

Eastern Europe is doing fine but thats easy cos they only turned pro in 1990 :: The Phillipines has two dudes in pfp ranks, they probably think boxing is flying even though they've had brilliant- possibly better- fighters in the past.

Perception....we had this discussion in the "income" thread in TAAA. Earn more than you spend and you are rich, even if you earn nothing.

 

good catch.

boxing is not dong well , at leat in the state, cause the free market model is past its peremption date, and it need a central sanctioning body.

still, the talent pool is pretty good (contrary to what some idiots like cdogg and hut says to try to be interesting), so it can get out of the sewer easilly (except in the hw dvision, wich suck to no end)

 

Consider it a Boxing INTERVENTION, Bro...It was Done Out of LOVE...



REED:love:

 

Here's the Thing...

Pretty Much EVERY Guy U've Listed had ALREADY Established his Place within the Sport of Boxing, Whereas MOST of the Guys REED's Listed R STILL in the Process of Identifying WHO they R...

Gamboa, Rios, Ward, Bute, Broner, etc...NONE of Us Knows for CERTAIN How these Guys Careers will Play Out...Who Knows what Demetrius Andrade will Do in Another Couple Years???...During a Similar Stage of Ward's Career, Virtually NOBODY Had High Hopes for him...

If Bradley UPSETS Pacquiao, that'll Catapult him into Stardom...

It's Hard to Compare COMPLETED Boxing Careers to Those that R Still IN PROGRESS...



REED:cheer: