Does Cintron have...

Exactly...

& it's NOT So Much about those Particular Names, it's about THE FACT that Margarito's Stay @ Welter has OVERLAPPED Two Different Era's...Yet During those 2 Era's Margarito has Managed to Fight ZERO Elite Welters...

Yet we're Supposed to Believe that ISN'T Margarito's Fault???:dunno:


REED

 

Not as hilarious as the idea that he DID want them.

Was he clamouring for the big names was he?

The boxing superstars get the big fights, people like Morales, Barrera, Pacman, Floyd, Corrales, Castillo, just about ANYONE you can think of that seeks greatness, they get the big fights.

They are usually pretty proactive, calling out their opponents, in their own weight division, and divisions above and below, and they make the big fights happen.

Both Morales and Floyd for example were both very proactive in making Arum get them big fights.

Margarito wasn't, and didn't get them, end of story.

But he REALLY wanted them, sure

 

Precisely REED. If he really wanted the big fights and clamoured for them, or even accepted them :: He would have got them.

It just never happens in boxing, where a fighter wants the big fights, but SOMEWAY, SOMEHOW, for reasons complete unexplained and possibly supernatural - doesn't get them. Shit look at Winky, even he ended up getting the big names and big fights.

I know it, you know, and Kenneth really should know it too.

Maybe Danny Perez is a good enough name for DAZED, Marge proved he was top dog when he hammered the dangerous, underrated Perez :bears:

 

I agree with that and "Marge" (:: ) does get some or alot of the blame....

But we are all familiar with plenty of fighters in history having this issue (being just enough of a threat and being just "unknown" enough to be a VERY unattractive risk/reward ratio) for YEARS....Hagler, Moore, Harold Johnson, Charles, Pryor, and so on.....

So it DOES happen.

I am obviously not equating Margarito to those fighters; simply making a point that this is not a new phenomenon or one unique to Margarito.

I'm not a Margarito fan, so I have no interest in taking blame away...and he shares in it. But not ALL of it is at his door.

Peace.

 

Add Trinidad being gone by then to that list as well.

That I very much agree with and it's a point that often gets overlooked.

People want Marge to have fought all these guys, but the fact is that when the WWT division was in its "golden age" (1999-2002) - Margarito was like 19-3 and trying to come up and get in line for ANY kind of title shot or shot against an elite opponent. He was nobody.

It wasn't until abour 4 years ago that he came into his own at WWT and became an official threat and was on the division's radar screen.

By then, that golden age was gone.

And Danny Perez is often underrated. I'm not saying he's the sh*t, but he is underrated as a tough opponent.

And believe me, I'm not a Marge fan and agree he gets some of the blame.

Peace.

 

Well, Arum reportedly made a $4 million offer to Winky Wright in 2006 to which Wright supposedly said it wasn't enough (though it was more than he reportedly made against Taylor).

That year, Arum also reportedly made a $6 million offer to Mayweather...and then later on an $8 million offer. Mayweather turned down both according to reports...though both would have been more than he made against Gatti or Judah.

Maybe that's not considered pro-active.

 

The "Blame" is Margarita's AND Arum's, NOT the Fighters:nono: ...

The Guys who were Offered Fights w/Margarita Got BIGGER Fights Instead...Floyd was OFFERED the Fight but he Took on Zab, Baldomir, DeLa & Hatton Instead...

Regardless what U THINK Of those Cats as Fighters, EACH of them CLEARLY Brought More to the PPV Table than Margarito did...

Shane was Offered the Fight Also, but he Ended Up Facing Cotto, the SAME GUY that Margarito HIMSELF TURNED DOWN a Fight w/...

& if we're Gonna Start Counting Danny Perez as a VIABLE, Resume ENHANCING Type of Opponent, we Need to REexamine just about EVERYBODY's Resume...



REED

 

But that's just It...

Those Guys were Willing to Do ANYTHING...Move UP to Different Divisions, Fight N the Other Guys Hometown, Take SHORTS Financially, CHANGE Managers/Promoters....

Margarito TURNED DOWN a Fight w/Miguel Cotto, Donny...It was THERE For him, but he Chose Paul Williams Instead...That's NOBODY's Fault but HIS OWN...

REED Equates Margarito w/JM Marquez...Only Difference is, When Marquez Put his Foot DOWN, the Big Fights Eventually Came...He UNIFIED vs Gainer, Fought Manny Pac, SCREWED UP by Turning Down the Immediate RE, but Got HIMSELF Back into the Picture w/the Barrera Fight...

Guys Weren't "Ducking" Marquez...He just WASN'T Working HARD Enough to MAKE HIMSELF a Viabel Option for Guys...

Margarita & his Supporters Act like Somebody OWES him Something...& REED COULDN'T DISagree w/that More....



REED

 

Aren't you the one who mentioned David Banks as a resume enhancer?

I agree Perez isn't...and he certainly wasn't off of that performance. He arguably didn't win a round in that fight.

Speaking of Mosley, wasn't he offered $1.1 million by Arum to fight Margarito? It was turned down and he ended up fighting Jose Luis Cruz later that year.

 

Not Really, NO...

REED Listed Miranda's STRING of Opponents & Said that STRING was MORE IMPRESSIVE than Margarito's, which it IS...

All REED Knows is Shane was Offered Margarito @ SOME POINT...He was ALSO Offered a Fight w/Floyd TWICE...But Shane STILL Managed to Get MONEY Fights w/Vargas AND Cotto, Now Didn't He???:dunno: ...

AND he Squeezed N a Colazzo Fight...Maybe Arum & Maragarita Shoulda Offered Shane MORE than they Did???...

Even Guys like Vernon Forrest & Winky Wright Got Fairly BIG Fights...Shit even Cory Spinks has Faced Mayorga, Zab & Jermain Taylor...

Margarito is a Mexican Fighter that Mexicans DON'T Give a Shit about...Who's FAULT is that???

REED:dunno:

 

Mosley turned it down and fought Jose Luis Cruz on an undercard.

 

AND???:dunno: ...

How Much did he Make for Cruz???...If he Got even a MIL for Cruz, then WHY Would he Fight Margarito for 1.1???...

& the FACT REMAINS, Shane Fought Vargas TWICE, Collazo AND Cotto...3 of those 4 Fights HEADLINED a PPV...The Other HEADLINED an HBO Card...

It's NOT like he Turned Down Margarita to Wallow N Medocrity...Why didn't Margarita EVER try to Face Vargas or Collazo???...WHY Did Margarita TURN DOWN Cotto???...


REED

 

:: :clap:

 

But if you're going to hold Margarito accountable for not being more "persistent" in making the fights after there were recorded offers to Wright, TWO offers to Mayweather, and one offer to Mosley....

Then you DO have to hold the other fighters accountable at least in part for not taking the offer.....especially when they ended up fighting other opponents of lesser quality/with no belt; again, AFTER Margarito came to "prominence" in the division in 2004. AND they were respectable offers - and at least in one instance, more than the fighter had made to date (Wright).

You can't have it both ways.

And to your other point, at least TWO of those fights - Mosley and Wright - were at 154 lbs; indicating that Margarito/Arum were willing to go to 154 to make those fights....so Margarito was willing to do quite a bit.

Fact is, all of those cats were offered the fight and simply turned it down because it was not an acceptable risk/reward scenario....despite Margarito having a belt.

Totally agree that Margarito should be held accountable for passing on the Cotto fight first time around.

Peace.

 

Because Margarito is a much more significant win, with more prestige, and the WBO belt?

Isn't that the same argument you used for why Mayweather didn't fight Margarito - to then fight Baldomir?

You yourself have just said it.....the risk/reward scenario was not to Mosley's liking, period.

So do Margarito/Arum get some of the blame? Absolutely.

But so do the other fighters, no doubt.

Peace.

 

Two quick points:

1. Margarito/Arum are on record as having moved up once (to fight Santos) and having made offers to Wright and Mosley at 154 lbs. So they were willing to do that. Also, don't tell me that the offers included Margarito making MORE than Wright, Mosley, or Mayweather. I can almost guarantee he would have made less.

2. I agree that is often the case; but you and I both know that avoiding a fighter or turning him down because of an unattractive risk/reward ratio DOES happen.

It DID happen to Marquez, it did happen to Margarito, though not ALL cases can be attributed to that - I do agree with you.

It's shared "blame". But it happens.

Peace.

 

PERSISTENCE Shows Itself N your ALTERNATE Plans...

So ya'll R Saying Margarito Offered Shane, Floyd & Winky Offers???...Well NONE of ya'll have Explained JUST WHY Margarito TURNED DOWN Cotto...Thanks for Acknowledging it, but HOW is that Rationalized????...Instead, HE CHOSE Paul Williams, CLEARLY a "Lower Risk" Opponent...

U Guys Want to Give Margarito PROPS for Being "Ducked", but NONE of ya'll have Spoken on him REJECTING Big Fights...

& REED STILL Maintains that Arums' Timing of a Floyd Offer was FISHY...

So Floyd "Ducked" Margarito to Fight Zab, Baldomir, DeLa & Hatton???...Shane "Ducked" Margarito to Fight Vargas TWICE, Colazzo & Cotto???...Winky "Ducked" Margarito to MOVE UP to 160 & Eventually face Bernard Hopkins @ 170???...

Is that what U're REALLY Telling Us???...

If those Other Fighters FAILED to Make Meaningful Fights, REED would B 1st N Line ACCUSING them of DUCKING Margarito...But Sorry, REED CAN'T See a Guy "Ducking" Margarito when that Same Guy Ends Up Facing DeLa, Cotto or Bernard Hopkins...



REED:dunno:

 

You're the only one using the term "ducking" in regards to any of these fights/fighters.

As for Margarito turning down Cotto, Williams was his WBO mandatory and he was going to be stripped of the title. Arum had already gone on record saying Cotto-Margarito would have been made had he been successful against Williams.

Regardless, they're both still promoted by Top Rank, and if they're both successful this month it's likely they'll meet later this year.

 

Bang on.

Marge turned down a fight with Cotto, say no more say no more, nudge nudge, wink wink. If he really did want the big fights, he would have fought cotto, even if the deal wasn't ideal.

Good point with Marquez too. He was in a similar position to Marge, and so was winky actually.

I don't know whether it was down to Juan Manuel or his team, but his career was clearly handled with idiocy.

Marquez has now proved he is not afraid to fight the big fights, and he is a bonafide world class fighter. Same with Winky. The both got their asses in gear, got the big fights, and fought them well.

As of now, the same can't be said about Marge.

Cotto KO 1 Marge.

 

Come on now...you guys are being a little unfair.

And for the record, I'm no fan of Margarito. But this isn't about bias. Antonio Margarito deserved a big money fight well-before he "turned down" a bout with Cotto.

A few years ago, he was about the only logical opponent for Ricardo Mayorga, following his rematch against Forrest. And when Margarito spanked Six Heads, he called him out. It was the fight HBO wanted; a sure-fire, bombs away welterweight battle that had the potential to make both stars. King offered Spinks; a sure-fire stinker. It's not as if Margarito priced himself out of a match (or has ever been the type to do that) - he's been calling out fighters for years while maintaining his crown.

And when he realized he was being frozen out of the picture, this prime Margarito moved UP to 154 and, in his first bout, took on a difficult Daniel Santos in Santos' backyard of Puerto Rico. This is a guy who really didn't want a BIG-MONEY bout against a name opponent? Sure.

Equally absurd is how people used this loss as a reason for saying he didn't deserve a fight with Mayweather. He lost a technical split decision by one point after nine rounds - in his opponent's hometown; a bout where he was coming on down the stretch and had wobbled Santos on several occasions. This is a guy who doesn't want a big-money bout?

To say that Margarito ducked Cotto is just ridiculous. Seriously. Would you be willing to relinquish your title if you were Margarito? Furthermore, could fighting the stylistic nightmare that is Paul Williams ever be considered the dodging of someone else? And let's not act as if Margarito got beat up there. More than a handful of ringsiders and writers felt he won the fight and should've gotten Cotto next.

Now that he's talking about Cotto, he's overlooking Cintron. I mean, it just keeps coming. But call it what you want, Antonio Margarito should have gotten a big money fight. Shane Mosley fought Vernon Forrest twice. Vernon Forrest fought Ricardo Mayorga twice. Cory Spinks fought Zab Judah twice, and so on and so on.

Antonio Margarito? The longest reigning welter champ, largely unknown by the public, hadn't lost at welter since the Yankees won the first World Series under Torre, the guy who had never sniffed a seven figure payday. Yeah...he's the guy ducking the big-money fighters. Not vice versa. :notallthere:

 

Fucking hell man, now you REALLY are sounding like a Marge apologist.

I thought Williams was so so before that fight, and after the Quintana fight, I'm not far wrong. Anyway, my point is I thought Marge would win decisively, but he didn't.

If anyone scored that fight for Marge they are a groupie of the highest order. I was rooting for Marge because I had a bit of cash on him, but he lost that fight 8 rounds to 4. Williams landed about 1000 punches in the first 8 rounds, marge only started fighting in the last few.

Saying Marge ducked Cotto is ridiculous? No, I tell you what's ridiculous, rejecting a Cotto fight that would give you the chance to move from the sidelines to being a bonafide superstar, and become the MAN at welterweight, to keep hold of a stupid WBO belt that nobody cares about anyway. THAT is ridiculous. Especially given that in your estimation, he's really been wanting a big money fight against the likes of cotto all these years.

It's actually fairly common these days for a fighter to relinquish a belt to fight a BIG fight, such as hatton for example recently, but in your estimation the idea is preposterous and marge did the right thing by ducking cotto and hanging onto his wbo belt that nobody cares about ::

For marge, he sort of did do the right thing though, because cotto would batter him all over the ring.

 

I scored the fight 7-5 for Williams. I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to type all this (especially since you didn't really respond to anything else I wrote) when I never said I thought Margarito won. What I said was that a handful of ringsiders and writers thought Margarito won the fight. Am I wrong?

Fair enough. And the fact remains - the idea that Margarito ducked Cotto is ridiculous. No?

Are you kidding me? We're comparing Antonio Margarito to Ricky Hatton? Of course Hatton can relinquish a belt, he can do pretty much whatever the f*ck he wants. He's a star. Antonio Margarito is not. He tried to borrow a page from the Hopkins book by beating his chest real loud when it became obvious no one would fight him. It didn't work. Not only that, he simply isn't as good as Hopkins and finally lost.

Still, he deserved a big money fight and didn't get it. I don't see how anyone can argue that he didn't.

 

Because that was a fairly significant point in your argument. Essentially if you have to resort to "Margarito arguably won the fight" - you're coming off as incredibly bias.

Saying some people scored the fight for Margarito, is essentially saying "Margarito arguably won", but you're covering yourself because you personally didn't score the fight for marge. It's a silly argument because only a complete idiot would score that fight for marge and I think you know it.

Anyone with 2 eyes knew Williams won that fight clear, it wasn't even particularly close.

I don't know if you've noticed, but in almost EVERY fight that goes to a decision, that's not a clear whitewash, there's usually a few people that think the loser won, and sometimes even people in "press row".

So basically, to include "some people think marge won the fight" is pretty desperate, because I know, and you know, and anyone with 2 eyes should know that marge didn't win the fight.

I also bet these ringsiders who scored the fight for Marge are part of the california maxboxing crew who want to have Marge's babies, correct?

No I don't think it is ridiculous. Marge was offered the fight, and turned it down, therefore ducking him. It's not a ridiculous idea, it's a fact.

Turning down a big fight with Cotto, having the chance to become the "man" at welterweight and setup more big money fights, possibly even one with Floyd - to keep some stupid WBO belt nobody cares about is stupid and ridiculous.

Um, relinquishing his stupid belt and fighting cotto is EXACTLY what he should have done. Nobody cares about belts these days, most fans and most fighters don't. Fighter get called "champions" without even having a belt. Barrera and Pacman have both been considered champs of weight classes, whilst being beltless.

So say he did relinquish his belt, fight Cotto, win in impressive fashion, become an overnight star, become "the man" at welterweight, and setup more big money fights AND have the WBA belt.

This would be a stupid idea right? It would be much better to just hang on to his WBO belt that nobody cares about, and stick to the sidelines of the world boxing stage?

Seriously, what are you on about? :notallthere:

The only possible reason for rejecting the cotto fight is that he didn't fancy his chances.

If he beat Cotto, he would break into the big time, just like Nard did when he bashed Tito, just like Pacman did when he bashed Barrera etc etc

Not only that, but he would have Cotto's WBA belt to replace his precious WBO one ::

 

I had the fight for Margarito, so I can understand where he's coming from. I thought the scoring was apalling.

 

That's one of the most absurd scores you've ever put forth Tam. Have you rewatched the fight?

I had some money on Marge, mainly because I was a Williams doubter, so I was rooting for Marge proper, but he didn't win that fight, or even come close to it.

If I recall Tam, you were the only poster here who scored that fight for Marge.

There's always one :tease:

 

I could re-watch the fight a hundred times and the score won't change. I never re-score a fight. Don't believe in it.

I could give a shit if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

 

Exactly. REED insists that we are arguing that EVERYONE was "ducking" Margarito because he is such a feared threat.

That's not it at all.

It's simple: the risk/reward ratio was not attractive enough for these guys to consider fighting Margarito - even when there were significant offers to do it; along with an actual title belt.

It's that simple.

People want to see this in black & white: it's ALL Margarito's fault; or it's ALL the "other fighters'" faults. And then they take sides.

The accusation has been that Margarito/Arum have NEVER pursued these opponents. That has been shown to be FALSE. They have - even offering to fight them at 154. And the offers have been significant...with a WBO belt on the line in some cases.

The charge has been that Margarito didn't fight these opponents in the 'golden era' of WWTs. But for many of them, the timings were way off.

However....

Did Margarito DECLINE the Cotto fight? Absolutely and he is to be held accountable for that. But if he fought Cotto he would have been stripped of his WBO title...and that's not something most fighters are truly willing to do or can AFFORD to do if they're not true mega-stars.

Could Margarito have done even MORE? Absolutely as well. It's a good point....a great one.

But to say he's done "nothing" - and that no fighters have ever turned him down because the risk/reward ratio was not to their liking - is simply inaccurate.

So...the truth is somewhere in the middle; and it's not as "clear cut" as people want to make it.

Peace.

 

I'm beginning to think this way too.

 

Bro, I love and respect you - but why do you always focus on ONE point and go off on a tangent?

I scored Williams-Margarito a draw.

And you insulting people regarding their scoring of it is nonsense. Several folks have told you we have no love for Margarito (matter of fact I haven't really ever talked about him until this thread)....but right is right and fair is fair; and people can be discussing/debating "for" a fighter and not be a 'nuthugger.'

I expect better from ALL involved in this discussion....and btw, so far it has been a GREAT, KICK-ASS discussion...one of the better, more mature ones I've seen in months.

The data is staring you in the face and Kane, Dazed and myself have brought it up.

As to your point on "surrendering belts"...it's nice and fine to be an idealist, especially as a fan. But the fact is that a fighter who has a belt MAKES MORE MONEY for his fights. And more importantly, those belts still MEAN ALOT to the vast majority of fighters.

Very few fighters "transcend" the sport and become SUCH big stars that they can afford to drop belts at a whim. And even then, most don't really do it. Margarito is not there - and I'd argue he still wouldn't have been at that level had he beaten Cotto.

Anyway, he's going to likely get his shot at Cotto this year assuming he gets past Cintron.

Peace.

 

Because that was a fairly significant point in my argument :: . I mean, nothing else I wrote mattered. Then again, what did I expect when Mex's first argument was about why Margarito didn't fight guys like Ike Quartey (I mean....just wow).

But I guess I'm just a Margarito nuthugger