<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> You're whole life revolves around the idea that your "savior" (who couldn't save himself froma humiliating death) is going to come back to earth and save you from eternal damnation.(2,000 years and counting) You live your life according to a book that depicts snakes talking to men. You believe that mortal men can talk to god and he'll listen and talk back to us. Yet, I am the guy who is living in a dream world? [/b][/quote] Ya got problems dude. Yep, I believe that book and I believe in miracles. But that's irrelevant. Forget about the book, what is so unreasonable about believing in an intelligent creator?? You can't answer THAT simple question! Why? Because you are simple minded. The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> haha i think you might just be a devil's advocate to get people thinking. i'll have you MURDERED [/b][/quote] Do your worst!!! :bag: The Sly One is ready!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> your "savior" (who couldn't save himself froma humiliating death) [/b][/quote] in the story, he coulda saved himself. he chose to be crucified, in order to atone for our sins. [/b][/quote] How does that atone for our sins? I've heard the story but it makes no sense. God is supposed to be capable of anything but he couldn't forgive humans for their sins unless his son came down and suffered a miserable death. :wacko: Also the whole ordeal on heaven and hell is out of whack. If you listen to the devil and obey him then you are sent to hell where the devil is supposed to punish you. :wacko: He's punishing you for obeying him. Let me guess, he's working the man upstairs also.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> IF causeless events were possible...at any moment in time for no given reason a BLUE tree could spring out of the ground with read leaves and the fruit that it bares would be GOLDEN apples. A dinosaur the size of texas could suddenly fall out of the sky. The sky itself could turn red with green stripes and thunder could sound like one of Beethoven's songs. ANY THING WOULD BE POSSIBLE and there would be NO REASON for anything. It would be ANARCHY and we may as well not think!!!!!!!! Do you think that all of the above is possible???? [/b][/quote] yes they are all possible. they're just not actual. i didn't say causeless events were common or noticeable. (and the same way, you don't think that gods are common.)
Mr Blue, LIFE itself is a miracle. To this day Scientists (who choose not to believe in God) cannot explain it. They cannot explain how it started. They cannot explain the intelligence behind it. LIFE is a MIRACLE. If LIFE could have started in the beginning, if a simple sperm and an egg could cause a living breathing thinking human being with a multitude of bodily functions, organs, senses with everything working perfectly then SURE...I can accept God speaking to men, Snakes speaking to men and whatever else. You are too simple minded to realize the miracle that YOU are...yes YOU Mr Blue. You think you just happened by chance without a designer. You think that you owe your existance to a mere chance that arose out of nothing??? If you do....and you honestly think that everything happened by chance....then you DO believe in miracles after all. Why ridicule the thought of snakes speaking or God communcating with men...if you believe that life happened by itself??? :wacko: Think about it!!! The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> IF causeless events were possible...at any moment in time for no given reason a BLUE tree could spring out of the ground with read leaves and the fruit that it bares would be GOLDEN apples. A dinosaur the size of texas could suddenly fall out of the sky. The sky itself could turn red with green stripes and thunder could sound like one of Beethoven's songs. ANY THING WOULD BE POSSIBLE and there would be NO REASON for anything. It would be ANARCHY and we may as well not think!!!!!!!! Do you think that all of the above is possible???? [/b][/quote] yes they are all possible. they're just not actual. i didn't say causeless events were common or noticeable. (and the same way, you don't think that gods are common.) [/b][/quote] WHAT????? So you are telling me that ANYTHING could happen without reason? Is that really what you are telling me Rooster? Then why oh why is the universe BOUND by laws? WHY OH WHY don't these causeless event just keep happening randomly...WHAT WOULD STOP THEM????????? The Sly One needs answers!!
Rooster, are you applying the implications of quantum physics to the visible mechanics of the world?(sorry for wording, I never finished highschool) If so, how can you, when the whole revelation of quantum physics is that it defies the old rules we knew. Wouldnt it go without saying that goes both ways? Please enlighten me if Im off base, I find this very interesting.
hume (or humeans) reckons it's hard to prove that 'necessitating causation' exists. all we see is conjunction of events. since causation is (perceptibly) nothing more than conjunction, it's conceivable for the effect to happen without the cause - i.e. the second conjunct without the first conjunct. the only basis we have to beleiev in necessary causal relationships is inductive generalisation, i.e. 'every event i've seen has had a cause. therefore all events must have a cause'. quine rejected the neat distinction between 'logic' and 'illogic'. our perceptions of what is illogical have changed over time, and it's possible to adopt a completely different set of 'illogical statements'.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> How does that atone for our sins? I've heard the story but it makes no sense. God is supposed to be capable of anything but he couldn't forgive humans for their sins unless his son came down and suffered a miserable death. :wacko: [/b][/quote] From the beginning, BLOOD was the atonement for sin. Blood signifies life in the NATURAL and in the SPIRITUAL. To bridge the gulf between God and Men, God had to incar............ ....nah....no more pearls. The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> hume (or humeans) reckons it's hard to prove that 'necessitating causation' exists. all we see is conjunction of events. since causation is (perceptibly) nothing more than conjunction, it's conceivable for the effect to happen without the cause - i.e. the second conjunct without the first conjunct. the only basis we have to beleiev in necessary causal relationships is inductive generalisation, i.e. 'every event i've seen has had a cause. therefore all events must have a cause'. quine rejected the neat distinction between 'logic' and 'illogic'. our perceptions of what is illogical have changed over time, and it's possible to adopt a completely different set of 'illogical statements'. [/b][/quote] :shaneUD12Oscar: It's worse that ancient Greek. Hume and Quin are just confusing themselves. They are going around in circles using all sort of philosophy (which is itself based on causation...go figure) and never reaching a definite conclusion. Rooster. Forget "conjunctions" and all of that malarky, whenever something happens we know that there is a reason for it. There is ALWAYS a reason. If there is a forest fire...it happened because the woods was too dray or the sun was too hot, someone started it...OR SOMETHING. There is always a reason. Quin is confusing logic/illogical with expected/not expected. That's all. I can see through it straight away. The Sly One has Spoken!!
WHAT WOULD STOP RANDOM CAUSELESS EVENTS FROM HAPPENING FREQUENTLY???? If they are random with no cause then there should be no prevention either. The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> are you applying the implications of quantum physics to the visible mechanics of the world?(sorry for wording, I never finished highschool) If so, how can you, when the whole revelation of quantum physics is that it defies the old rules we knew. Wouldnt it go without saying that goes both ways? [/b][/quote] i dont know anything about quantum mechanics last time this topic came up i ended up feeling a bit sheepish, and realised that i'd overrated my knowledge and understanding of cosmology. i guess nobody is being 'stupid', nobody on any side in any argument is ever just being 'stupid'. i think i'm going to step deftly out of this topic and not come back until i do some more reading. and being as i dont have much free time, that may be a long while.
i see balck06 has come into the thread. he's the guy who made me feel ike a bit of a pompous dickhead last time we had the god discussion. :Calvin Brock:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Rooster, are you applying the implications of quantum physics to the visible mechanics of the world?(sorry for wording, I never finished highschool) If so, how can you, when the whole revelation of quantum physics is that it defies the old rules we knew. Wouldnt it go without saying that goes both ways? Please enlighten me if Im off base, I find this very interesting. [/b][/quote] Good point!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> i dont know anything about quantum mechanics last time this topic came up i ended up feeling a bit sheepish, and realised that i'd overrated my knowledge and understanding of cosmology. i guess nobody is being 'stupid', nobody on any side in any argument is ever just being 'stupid'. i think i'm going to step deftly out of this topic and not come back until i do some more reading. and being as i dont have much free time, that may be a long while. [/b][/quote] Come on...don't give up so soon. You don't want me to call you Acelino Frietas now do you? Seriously though...I respect that. The Sly One is sad that Rooster has to retire!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> i see balck06 has come into the thread. he's the guy who made me feel ike a bit of a pompous dickhead last time we had the god discussion. :Calvin Brock: [/b][/quote] how so man?
Who's that anonymous person lurking on this topic? SHOW YOURSELF!! :teh angry: ntome: The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Sir Slice, I have come to the same conclusion. If there is a God, and by definition, he knows all, then He knows who will or won't make it to heaven, and there is not a thing you can do to change it, because God's will is God's will, then why bother. Good point. :: [/b][/quote] In a sense you are correct...but to further explain that is going too deep. Why bother? You should only "bother" if that is what you want to do. If you want to do it and do it, it would mean that you are one of the people that he already knew would make it. He would know the end from the beginning, in eternity, but we have the ability to choose or choose not, in time. The Sly One has Spoken!! [/b][/quote] But since He would know if you will choose Him or not, then it is pre-ordained, and not really your choice. If you are one who was chosen to worship Him, you will, if not, you won't. So again, why bother? Either way it is your destiny.
Some quick thoughts on this topic.... 1. Big Bang Theory - anyone that's done some reading on the topic is familiar with it's major problems (horizon, flatness, magnetic monopole, etc). A big bang is likely to have occurred, but almost certainly not in the sequence or manner as described in the standard theory. The circumstances surrounding the initiation are very fuzzy....possibly involving dark matter and other unknown forces. 2. Evolution - there's no doubt that micro-evolution has and continues to occur. Macro-evolution is on somewhat shaky ground, but even if it's true there's big questions about the very beginning. The prevailing explanation is the primordial soup (giving rise to the first single cell organisms), but again the theory can be poked full of holes. I believe the nature of God involves the initiation of these events, and that God could be described from a physics standpoint if we had sufficient knowledge (which we may never have). I have an abstract concept of God involving dark matter, functioning in non-euclidean dimensions, etc. It's just as likely that I'm full of crap.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> The two can overlap. For things as advanced as the universe, we rely on science to provide us with logic. For example, it would be illogical to say next year will last 500 days, why? Because science has proven it takes the earth 365/66 days to orbit the sun. Our intelligence is based on discoveries, even religion. If no one had told you about what goes on in the bible, and there was no mention of it on television or in books or whatever, would you still have thought about it, by yourself? I doubt it. [/b][/quote] Good attempt you are a smart man, but this example is wrong: "For example, it would be illogical to say next year will last 500 days, why? Because science has proven it takes the earth 365/66 days to orbit the sun." - SIR Dice N Slice Nice try. But it's not a logical/illogical issue. It would NOT be illogical for the Earth to have 500 days in a year. It would be IMPROBABLE and COUNTERINTUITIVE but NOT illogical. It is theoretically possible. The Earth could shift orbit for some reason. The gravitational pull of the Sun could diminish for some reason. The point is, there can be a reason for it to happen if it did happen. It's not impossible. What would be illogical is IF the earth STOPPED MOVING (relative to the sun) through space but yet still had a 365 day year. THAT is an example of illogical....because if the Earth was stationary....a year would be INFINITE!! Do you see the difference? The Sly One has Spoken!! [/b][/quote] First off, thanks for the compliment, same to you, you obviously know what you're talking about. The earth year thing come to think of it was a very bad example, I could have done better than that. My point is, logic constantly changes with science, and new scientific discoveries. 2,000 years ago, for example, sailing off the east coast of America and coming back to dock on the west coast was illogical, because the world was flat, and your boat would have fallen off the face of the earth. We now know different, because of new discoveries. Which brings me back to the Gamma ray problem, if as it seems, Gamma rays defy Einsteins law of relativity, then one of the most important and fundamental laws of physics is wrong, which would have a knock on effect on any other law based on it. These rays in their very existence are illogical, because in no case, should an objects energy exceed its mass, according to our "logic" at least, anyway. That's my point, you tried to use logic as a way of explaining the exsistence of a God, when it might be totally unreliable, as we simply don't know enough. One more thing, Mr Blue made a good point, is a talking serpent or people being brought back to life as well as virgins giving birth not as illogical as multi-coloured dinosaurs the size of Texas falling from the sky?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Some quick thoughts on this topic.... 1. Big Bang Theory - anyone that's done some reading on the topic is familiar with it's major problems (horizon, flatness, magnetic monopole, etc). A big bang is likely to have occurred, but almost certainly not in the sequence or manner as described in the standard theory. The circumstances surrounding the initiation are very fuzzy....possibly involving dark matter and other unknown forces. 2. Evolution - there's no doubt that micro-evolution has and continues to occur. Macro-evolution is on somewhat shaky ground, but even if it's true there's big questions about the very beginning. The prevailing explanation is the primordial soup (giving rise to the first single cell organisms), but again the theory can be poked full of holes. I believe the nature of God involves the initiation of these events, and that God could be described from a physics standpoint if we had sufficient knowledge (which we may never have). I have an abstract concept of God involving dark matter, functioning in non-euclidean dimensions, etc. It's just as likely that I'm full of crap. [/b][/quote] No, you are not full of crap. I believe in God, was raised in church (yep ) and long ago came to the conclusion that the truth of the creation of the universe was simply OK, God created it, but Evolution (including the Big Bang) was the tool He used. Any other explanation puts the two at odds. Evolution by itself cannot stand and some of the unanswered questions point to a diety. But scientific fact cannot be ignored, and some of the contradictions of fanatical Creationists are ludicrous because of these facts. A melding of the two, to me, seems to fit the bill.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Some quick thoughts on this topic.... 1. Big Bang Theory - anyone that's done some reading on the topic is familiar with it's major problems (horizon, flatness, magnetic monopole, etc). A big bang is likely to have occurred, but almost certainly not in the sequence or manner as described in the standard theory. The circumstances surrounding the initiation are very fuzzy....possibly involving dark matter and other unknown forces. 2. Evolution - there's no doubt that micro-evolution has and continues to occur. Macro-evolution is on somewhat shaky ground, but even if it's true there's big questions about the very beginning. The prevailing explanation is the primordial soup (giving rise to the first single cell organisms), but again the theory can be poked full of holes. I believe the nature of God involves the initiation of these events, and that God could be described from a physics standpoint if we had sufficient knowledge (which we may never have). I have an abstract concept of God involving dark matter, functioning in non-euclidean dimensions, etc. It's just as likely that I'm full of crap. [/b][/quote] No, you are not full of crap. I believe in God, was raised in church (yep ) and long ago came to the conclusion that the truth of the creation of the universe was simply OK, God created it, but Evolution (including the Big Bang) was the tool He used. Any other explanation puts the two at odds. Evolution by itself cannot stand and some of the unanswered questions point to a diety. But scientific fact cannot be ignored, and some of the contradictions of fanatical Creationists are ludicrous because of these facts. A melding of the two, to me, seems to fit the bill. [/b][/quote] Good point Hairy, btw, I am not saying there is no "higher power" of some sort which creates and conducts the flow of life, I just don't consign to the theory of God as depicted in organised religions. The theory of evolution is very probable, in Italy they found the remains of a lesser known homo-sapien, (I know I will get the spelling of this completely wrong!), called homo-hyperthegansis, which when studied by scientists, was found to have very nearly the same amount of intelligence as a modern day human. It used tools, and what's more, MANUFACTURED tools, to trade to others (most likely in exchange for food). As well as having oversized tools which were used as show-pieces to show off their handiwork, all distinct human traits. They weren't completely human though, and more than likely resembled an ape of some sort.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> But since He would know if you will choose Him or not, then it is pre-ordained, and not really your choice. If you are one who was chosen to worship Him, you will, if not, you won't. So again, why bother? Either way it is your destiny. [/b][/quote] True. What you say is the absolute truth. However pre-destination is based on foreknowledge..."Those he foreknew he also pre-destinated" - Romans 8. So destiny is still in our hands, in a sense, he just KNOWS what we would do with the choices that we have. If you don't "bother", then you are proving that your predestination is that you are not one of his. If you "bother" then your predestination is that you are one of his. So you still have somewhat of a choice in the matter if you think about it...nevertheless what you say is true. Depends upon which way you look at it. The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> No, you are not full of crap. I believe in God, was raised in church (yep ) and long ago came to the conclusion that the truth of the creation of the universe was simply OK, God created it, but Evolution (including the Big Bang) was the tool He used. Any other explanation puts the two at odds. Evolution by itself cannot stand and some of the unanswered questions point to a diety. But scientific fact cannot be ignored, and some of the contradictions of fanatical Creationists are ludicrous because of these facts. A melding of the two, to me, seems to fit the bill. [/b][/quote] There is no reason why the concepts of God and Evolution cannot co-exist per se, BUT evolution has TOO MANY HOLES in it to be taken as fact. FAR TOO MANY. Creationism makes far more sense, and I'll discuss that at length shortly. Big Bang makes no sense either...because black holes cannot explode. The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> Good point Hairy, btw, I am not saying there is no "higher power" of some sort which creates and conducts the flow of life, I just don't consign to the theory of God as depicted in organised religions. The theory of evolution is very probable, in Italy they found the remains of a lesser known homo-sapien, (I know I will get the spelling of this completely wrong!), called homo-hyperthegansis, which when studied by scientists, was found to have very nearly the same amount of intelligence as a modern day human. It used tools, and what's more, MANUFACTURED tools, to trade to others (most likely in exchange for food). As well as having oversized tools which were used as show-pieces to show off their handiwork, all distinct human traits. They weren't completely human though, and more than likely resembled an ape of some sort. [/b][/quote] Fossils of "ancient man" are NO EVIDENCE of evolution....they are just USED as evidence if evolution is the premise. Remove the premise, and there can be a variety of explanations. For example: Tigers seem to be going out of existance. There are only a few thousand left in the wild. Suppose they do go out of existence and are eventually forgotten about. Suppose, in a few thousand years or so, scientists dig up a Tiger fossil and study it. They would realize that this creature is a big cat of some sort but not a Lion. Using the same logic, they may suggest that the Lion evolved from the Tiger. However, the truth would be, that the tiger was simply another "race" of cat the went out of existence. There is NO evidence for evolution if you apply this logic. Evolution is JUST a theory. btw....it takes TWO humans, male and female to make a human. This is SCIENTIFIC FACT. Go back one thousand years and it's STILL A FACT. Go back 2000 years and IT'S STILL THE FACT. Go back a few million years and IT'S STILL THE FACT. Every seed brings forth after it's kind. Human spawns human...NOTHING ELSE can spawn a human. That in itself shows the problem with the theory that we all came from zooplankton, fishes, amphibians, Birds, reptiles, apes etc. NONSENSE!! The Sly One has Spoken!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> is sly still quoting fanatical chrisitian websites like last time we had this discussion? [/b][/quote] Boy, You proved your IGNORANCE the last time we had this discussion so I suggest that you run along before you get e-hurt. This is way above your head. Leave this for the adults to discuss. The Sly One has Spoken!!
I think we'll find that the theory of evolution has more solid basis in fact and observation than any wild ideas about the Earth being created around the time of the Mesopotamians has. Biblical creation has as much credence as the Aboriginal dreamtime, with their giant snakes and weird stick-men demons or whatever the hell they are. But, I guess if you wish to make it up as you go along, that's up to you.