Felix Trinidad wants Kelly Pavlik fight @165

'93 to '99 to be exact. He did wanted to have the big fights with the other welter champs, but didn't materialized due to conflicting promoters. He was always calling out Whitaker and begging Don King to get that fight or with Quartey. He even asked for Chavez when Chavez was still undefeated. What he could do? These other boxers promoters didn't wanted to risk their boys with Tito and King didn't want to mess up his money machine (Chavez) with this young dangerous welter. To his credit he finally fought DeLa Hoya and Whitaker, the fights that made him a star. Too bad it happened at the end of his welterweight reign.

 

I specifically listed those years because I was giving him some credit for who he fought outside of that period.

The number of defenses is nice, but when guys like Oba Carr and Yori Boy Campas are among the best of the lot, it puts it into perspective.

And blaming Don King, no matter how accurate it is, doesn't improve the quality of names.

 

Tito is too old now......but his style matches up favorably for him against Kelly.

 

Im just completely baffled by anyone who can say Hopkins is not a big middleweight,.. how can it be??? :doh:

I'll never forget when Hopkins was making this so called 'historical move up two divisions to face the TOWERING Antonio Tarver (Remembering the Roy fights)...
....................when the first staredown images came out............................. WHAT THE FUCK?????... .. Hopkins would have been barely an inch shorter,..and he was MUCH broader around the chest and shoulders,...

A few things that hypnotise people about Hopkins size,.. 1) People blindly base sizes on the division where a fighter presides most of thier career or even where they 'started at'.... without opening thier eyes,...Pacman started at Flyweight??.. Hatton at 140 all his career to my knowledge,.. just watch how much of a size difference there will be between the two, it'll be nothing. 2) They dont realise every individuals body has threshold limits in cutting weight, Hopkins, Williams, Margarito etc..can drain thier bodies without problems, whereas someone like tiny little Arthur Abraham, struggles to even make 160, but he looks like a welterweight??. As I have said over and over again, this fucked up weigh-in system is NOT a fair assurance that two fighters are genuinely of the same size. 3) Hopkins fights like a bitch,.. chin tucked, head-down ready to butt, and usually always backpeddling,.. he rarely ever comes forwards looking to take out his smaller opposition unless it's to clinch, smother or foul on the inside (which in turn glorifies Hopkins as one of the most 'physical fighters' in boxing).. and so it's somewhat unusual for your garden variety 'weight exploiting' predator in this day and age not to come forwards looking to kill thier smaller prey, adding to the lack of detection in spotting the cunning guargantuan cockroach.

 

Felix Trinidad is a top 15 welterweight, All-Time.

He would've brutalized Chavez, Quartey, and Norris, if those guys stepped up.

He also beat an undefeated Oba Carr (went tooth and nail with prime Quartey), and Yori Boy Campas (went on to title at 154), not the shot faded versions Dela Homo eventually fought.

 

Be careful there, cdogg, this might be a bit too much reality for some of these folks to handle. ::

 

Ummmm....do I need to mention Virgil Hill and his number of title defenses. Numbers alone don't tell the story. It's WHO was fought among the many title defenses that really tells the story.

 

:atu: tooth & nail huh?

 

REED Found that Line FUNNY as Well & Used it N the Round by Round Thread...



REED::

 

a title he won from Marquez let's not forget. Also, Oba Carr never won a big fight in his life.

I still agree Tito was a great welterweight. I just think it was due primarily to his hand-wraps. And I'm among the minority who think he "did" beat ODH, btw. But only due to hand-wraps.

It was obvious. ODH fought that fight the same way Cotto fought Margarito. And it's the same way anyone with self-preservation in mind would fight someone with bricks in their hands.

 

So you think Virgil Hill will not be inducted in Canastota?:notallthere: Who he fought? Ok, who did Tyson fought? He was knocked out by the only two best names in his resume since geriatric Larry Holmes doesn't count. What about legendary Rocky Marciano. Who the fuck he beat? Geriatrics Louis & Archie Moore plus bums. Will Tyson not go down as a Hall Famer? Isn't Marciano 'a legend'. How many 'names' are in Ricardo Lopez undefeated record? or for that matter, Floyd Mayweather? old faded DLH who many still think deserved the nod in their fight? Of course if we are going to compare everybody with Ray Robinson or Ali, then everybody will pale in comparison.

If Tito had something great was that he not only erased the "0" on many high ranked undefeated fighters at their prime, but did it in very entertaining bouts.

 

So Trinidad went an entire career with illegal hand wraps...right..and Jose Luis Castillo always had someone put their feet under the scale for all his weight in also...


and DLH did not fight Tito similar to the way Cotto fought Margarito...actually YES it was similar..but it seem to me that DE LA HOYA intentions from the start was to move stay away....beat Trinidad w/ a jab...while Cotto seem to want to stay close enough to land to the body...but the second he felt Margarito plaster of paris hands..he got on his wheels..

 

Can't be fucked with backspace button ay,..:: sheer Illuminati,..as rough as it gets.

 

exactly. his opposition was completely ordinary

 

Exactly!

 

Virgil Hill faced easily the worst opposition of any long reigning champion on record... and he was outboxed with ease by a former Welterweight who was very old and arguably damn near shot (Thomas Hearns)

Being inducted into Canastota doesnt mean much these days... you could remove at least half the guys there without much argument

 

That's weird, I would've named two first-ballot Hall of Famers Oscar De La Hoya (31-0) and Pernell Whitaker (40-2-1) as the best in the lot. (And both of Whitaker's losses at the time were highly controversial -- to Oscar and Ramirez). Trinidad is actually the first guy to defeat Whitaker convincingly, winning nearly every round.

I'd follow them with Campas (55-0 at the time), Carr (32-0 at the time) and Hector Camacho (43-2 at the time). Follow them with Maurice Blocker (34-3 -- and a very good welterweight champ) and Luis Garcia (very good welterweight, too.)

Actually Roger Turner was a very good welterweight when Trinidad fought him. Freddie Pendleton was still a highly regarded fighter when Trinidad fought him. Larry Barnes was a very good welter (with wins over Harold Brazier, Glenwood Brown, Verno Phillips and Darryl Lattimore).

Trinidad's list of defenses at welter was actually very good. Far better than other welter champs in the Hall like Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas.

 

dubblemint is right, you chaps are sleeping on trinidads near obliteration of a still vintage whitaker. if you have any doubts about whitaker still being a top notch hall of famer simply check his excellent display of ability against pestraiv

 

Eight guys Trinidad defended his welterweight title against either won world titles after he beat them (Oscar and Campas) or got multiple world title shots after that: including Oba Carr, who got two welterweight title shots (and many thought he beat Quartey); Anthony Stephens got two junior middleweight title shots; Hector Camacho, who beat Duran and Leonard before getting another title shot against Oscar; Larry Barnes and Kevin Lueshing, who both got junior middleweight title shots; and Freddie Pendleton, who subsequently got three title shots against Vince Phillips, James Page and Ricky Hatton.

So he "hardly" defended against mediocre or "ordinary" opposition. They remained in the title picture for years.

And that's not counting him moving up and beating junior middleweight champs David Reid and Fernando Vargas (who won another world title after Trinidad destroyed him) or his middleweight wins over Cherifi, Joppy and Mayorga (and Joppy and Mayorga both won world titles after Trinidad destroyed them, too).

Trinidad is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Even if they cut half of the names out, his should be included.

His only losses were to Bernard Hopkins, Winky Wright and Roy Jones. And he was the favorite to beat Hopkins and Wright. So, obviously, people respected him.


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Trinidad is an All-Time great.

 

These are among the best welterweights he successfullly defended against, they're also all fighters that lost to De La Hoya...and hardly used to bolster his resume.

It's nice that you mention guys like Barnes and Leushing fought for other titles, but I guess there's a reason you say "title shots" instead of "won titles".

It sounds better than saying "he fought Yori Boy Campas or Harry Simon and got knocked out in three rounds".

It's good use of language.

In case it wasn't obvious, this discussion is specifically about his welterweight resume, and the number of welterweight defenses he made.

 

When they were much older, and AFTER Trinidad had beaten them (Campas, and Carr).

 

who the fuck thought carr beat quartey?? stop the lies, doublespin

 

The same ones that thought it relevant to mention Camacho beat Sugar Ray Leonard?

 

Well, in that group I didn't mention his decisive win over Whitaker during that period, or his decisive knockout over Luis Garcia (who had two previous title shots against Taylor and Blocker that were split decisions) or his decisive knockout over the top junior middleweight contender (in a non-title fight) Troy Waters.

 

Did you just get out of jail or something. ::

Wow, blast from the past.

 

Maybe. :stir:

 

Don't Forget Duran...



REED:hammert:

 

Duran wasn't a pushover when Camacho first defeated him before facing Oscar.

After that, Duran beat Jorge Castro and actually qualified for another middleweight title shot. And Castro went on to beat former cruiserweight champ Imamu Mayfield and got two cruiserweight title fights (against Jirov and Juan Carlos Gomez).

Camacho (and Duran for that matter) was certainly a tougher opponent than someone like Ralph "Tiger" Jones (see Quartey's title defenses).

 

Well, first of all, Carr, Camacho and Campas were all beaten by Trinidad in title defenses before Oscar ever fought them. So I don't know how he'd bolster his resume by fighting them when Trinidad had already knocked most of them out.

Trinidad's welterweight title wins (16 welterweight title wins) are better than any other welterweight beltholder of his generation.

They included:

* Maurice Blocker (34-3) Felix knocked out the former lineal champ for the title -- Trinidad stopped him in two.
* Luis Garcia (24-2) Garcia was in his third title fight after losing split verdicts in the first two. Trinidad stopped him in one round.
* Anthony Stephens (19-5-2)
* Hector Camacho (43-2) former two division champ
* Yori Boy Campas (56-0)
* Oba Carr (32-0)
* Roger Turner (29-2)
* Larry Barnes (39-1)
* Rodney Moore (37-9-2)
* Freddie Pendleton (40-20-4) former lightweight champ
* Ray Lovato (21-1)
* Kevin Lueshing (19-1)
Non-title first round knockout over top rated junior middle Troy Waters
* Mahenge Zulu (17-2-1)
* Pernell Whitaker (40-2-1) Former four-division champ. He had previously lost a controversial decision to Oscar
* Hugo Pineda (36-1-1)
* Oscar De La Hoya (31-0) Co-title holder at the time.

On the other hand, Oscar's welterweight title wins (9) included:
* Pernell Whitaker (controversial decision) -- four division champ
* David Kamau (28-1)
* Hector Camacho (63-3-1) Former two-division champ. He had already lost a welterweight title fight via shutout to Trinidad
* Wilfredo Rivera (27-2-1)
* Patrick Charpentier (27-4-1)
* Julio Cesar Chavez (100-2-2) Three division champ
* Ike Quartey (34-0-1) Reigning Co-titlist
* Oba Carr (48-2-1) He had already been knocked out by Trinidad
* Derrell Coley (34-1-2)

And Ike Quartey's welterweight title wins (7) included:
* Crisanto Espana (30-0)
* Alberto Cortes (62-3-1) He had already been knocked out by Trinidad
* Jung Oh Park (27-3-3)
* Andrew Murray (18-2)
* Vince Phillips (33-1)
* Oba Carr (39-1) He had already been knocked out by Trinidad
* Ralph "Tiger" Jones (30-1)
There was also a draw/tie in there with Jose Luis Lopez. (Not included as a "win" since he didn't win.)

Like I said, Trinidad's wins at welterweight are better than any of his peers and are better than some former welterweight champs already in the Hall (like Palomino and Cuevas, if you need examples).