Fighter of the year: Can there be any doubt?

Disagree..beating OSCAR DE LA HOYA (only 34) at 154lbs for a 5th title and beating Hatton who destroyed both tszyu and Castillo and was still undefeated and in his prime of primes...means FAR MORE than beating mickey mouse unproven titlists like Cintron and Margarito.

Not even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

"noteworthy" is a different context than what some other people are arguing.

I think a win over Margarito means more than Hatton.

I also don't think Cintron should be considered on par with Margarito...he holds a belt while Margarito doesn't, but that doesn't mean a win over him means the same.

 

KNOCKING OUT a 34 year old, inactive, stamina-less, semi-retired ODLH would have been very noteworthy. Winning a debatable, split-decision against him was not.

Hindsight has shown conclusively that Ricky Hatton is no more than a B-Level, Collazo sort of guy at Welter. World Class at 140, yes, but NOT at 147 :nono:

 

Don't get me wrong- at 147 I think Floyd beats both of these guys, but these (with Cotto and esp. Williams) are the guys he SHOULD be fighting- not old tranny promoters and Junior welterweights

If Floyd fights and beats these guys, there is no debate to be had whatsoever...

 

Judah's not in the top five because he's lost to Baldomir, Mayweather and Cotto...and because Cotto knocked him out (and Mayweather might have).

As for Baldomir...he was so highly regarded as a champion he was an underdog to Arturo Gatti.

 

Two things:

nothing debateable about that decision against Oscar. Floyd won 8 rounds on most observers' cards, certainly mine.

Also B-Class fighters don't wear down and Stop Kostya Tszyu! :kick:

 

:doh:

Most observers? Like the three judges at ringside, for example? My point was that he did not win BIG, which would have been very noteworthy. Or maybe you think he did Sly? :dunno:

And as for the second point...

...HATTON IS WORLD CLASS AT 140, BUT B-CLASS AT 147. This is what I said, yes? Now then, remind me, at what weight did Hatton beat Tszyu?

:warning: MTF

 

Was Thomas Hearn B Class at 160lbs because he was KOed by Iran Barkley in just three short rounds? If So Marvin beating him meant SHIT! ::

 

Irrelevant

Hatton has had two fights at 147, in the first of which he was out on his feet in the 12th against a fringe top 10 guy like Collazo and he was then dominated by Floyd, a guy most would agree is not a particularly big welter or even at his most comfortable at that weight.

Would Hatton beat any top ten Welterweight? Like hell he would. This means he is B-Class at Welter.

Now then, how many top ten Lt Welters would he beat? Probably ALL of them. that makes him World Class at Lt Welter.

The difference is as clear as crystal.

MTF

 

Yeah, but Judah and Baldomir WERE in that top five, before Mayweather beat them. In three fights at the weight, he's beat the unified champion, the former unified champion and the 140 pound champion. There is little reason to boo over his recent year, IMO.

 

I accept that makes him a strong contender for FOTY in 2006, but they cannot be taken into account for this year's FOTY, which is what Sly tried to do. :dunno:

 

In those terms, Cotto's beaten one welterweight champion, a former welterweight champion (regarded at the time as the best champion) and a former undisputed welterweight champion.

 

"those terms"? Thats exactly what Baldomir was, Judah and Hatton were, but one fight removed from.

Sure, Mosley was a champion at the start of the decade...and, well...Judah was one fight less than when Mayweather beat him.

Who's this guy regarded as the "best champion" that Cotto beat by the way?

And I'm not denegrating Cotto either, so I'm no really sure why he was raised at all. Cotto is the #1 guy at the weight besides Mayweather.

 

Judah was also one fight less (before the Mayweather fight) from when Baldomir beat him. The only credibility Baldomir has in this discussion is from his fight with Judah...who has been beaten by a number of fighters.

Baldomir hasn't done anything in the time since that win...as evidenced by his near shutout loss to Forrest and struggles with Perez (granted both fights were above 147).

I was referring to Mosley, who was considered the best at the time he was the champion.

The division was weaker at the point when Baldomir was champion than it is now, so giving their classifications at that time doesn't mean as much as it would now.

Last year, pretenders like Walter Matthysse and Joel Julio were in title eliminators...and beaten badly.

Cotto has since moved up, Mosley moved down, Williams won his first world title. Those three fighters are generally ranked 2-4, currently...with Margarito and Cintron at 5th and 6th.

The division is clearly better now than it was a year ago.

 

Who is arguing otherwise? I'm not, so please don't waste my time on your high horse. All I did was make a defense of Floyd Mayweather's recent competition (oh, FOR SHAME!) and you sprout on about Miguel Cotto. When I put down Cotto or some shit, I'd be happy to talk this junk with you...but I agree and didn't have an interest in this line of the discussion anyway.

As you were.

 

did you watch cintron's last fight? he nearly brokedown again but this time against a club fighter.

paul williams is fighting in february and is looking to fight cintron.

again, who is paul willams? a guy with ONE significant win?

should mayweather fight every damn serviceable opponent available?

 

dsimon writes:

Its funny how these type threads degenerate into haters and nutlickers extrodinaire. The fact is that this designation is ridiculously subjective. A case could be made for any number of guys and it becomes quite arbitrary and an exerscize in shitting on the accomplishments of others.... pathetic.

I am not a fan of Calzighe, I like Pavlik, am a big fan of Mayweather and Cotto and you know what? you could give it to any one of these guys for any number of reasons. And if you gave it to Pavlik for example, for chastizing Miranda and his dramatic win over Taylor.... That is no fucking reason to shit on Floyd's show of skill and the craft of boxing against Hatton. If you gave it to Cotto for example, because he beat Mosley in a really well matched fight, with many suprises (that showed Cotto's range) then that is no reason why you might not give it to Joe because of his excellent fight against Kessler.

The fact is all these guys have stepped up and moved on a notch. They all showed something extra ordinary in the ring.... whether you like them or not. How exactly do you say that Joe beating a guy who had all the physical talent that Kessler did is less impressive than Pavlik getting off the canvas and finally ridding us of that bum Taylor?

 

It's interesting how you say the thread degenerated, considering it started by posing a question of whether there was "any doubt" about the FOTY...to which the thread starter answered "I think not".

Perhaps it didn't degenerate, at all.

 

correctamundo!

 

Pavlik should be FOTY.

Pavlik beat 3 top fighters via KO.
Pavlik beat 2 fighters that he was an underdog against. Via stoppage!
Pavlik beat the undisputed champion of his weight class.
All fighters Pavlik beat were in their primes.

 

What kind of boxing fan are you? Basically, with you it's Fuck Cotto, Fuck Williams and Fuck Margarito! Do you want Mayweather to retire or what? Who's left for him to fight if you think the 3 top contenders in his division aren't deserving of a fight with him?

 

Floyd no doubt. Hatton was no joke of a fighter, Oscar could have beaten Floyd, don't know why he didn't push him.

 

dsimon writes:

I stand corrected.... the thread started out in ana advanced state of decay!

 

Hatton is a 140 lb fighter.

 

Mugabi was a 154lb fighter, yet people praise Hagler no end for beating him. Duran was a 135lb fighter, yet people praise Leonard no end for beating him in the rematch.

Hatton was an unbeaten TOP 5 POUND for POUNDER!!!! It doesn't matter that he was dominant in just one division to the south!

 

We are not talking about Leonard or Hagler.

Hatton was on queer street and barely won a very controversial decision over the ordinary Collazo his last time at 147. Floyd was supposed to beat Hatton.
Im not diminishing Floyds record, I just think that what Pavlik did in '07 was a bit more impressive.

 

On any other year, Pavlik would be a LOCK, no doubt.

But winning those two superfights has to count for more, for Floyd....

 

The term superfights is a little bit overrated IMO. It was a big fight as far as ratings goes, but DLH fights once a year, is not the fighter he once was, and it was a close fight. The hatton, again, was a popular fight, but Floyd was favored to win, and Hatton never showed any success in the 147 weight division.

Pavlik beat "the man" in the division as well as 2 other undefeated top contenders. 2 of Pavliks opponents were favored as well. Pavlik also won all of these fights more convincingly.

Both men had great years, but all 3 of Pavliks fights were off the hook. DLH/Floyd really didn't do it for me.

 

It's funny about Pavlik,

All this time Taylor has been labeled a fraud at 160 yet Pavlik beating him is a big deal.

same with Miranda. Alot of people consider him at 160 version of Mayorga. Yet Pavlik beating him is something great.

I understand what their status were in the division to make Pavlik the man at middleweight.

But going into those fights those were not regarded as great fighters. Especially Taylor who was being critized for alot of his last fights.

I don't know how Pavlik beating them all of a sudden becomes something great. even if it was by KO.

I'ts no different than what Juan Diaz did picking up 2 more belts at 135:dunno:

 

agREED. Good post.