Greater fighter Trinidad or Canelo?

How many of those bums are 'unbeaten champions' like Billy Joe Saunders, though?

MTF

 

This was already discussed at the who's better Whittaker or Foreman thread and I think you said Pea was shot to shit by the time he faced Trinidad. I see you threw his name in there for fluff. I guess you thought a shot cracked head out atg is better than nothing. Nice try Junior

 

Context matters though. Trinidad vs Hopkins was considered a superfight. Opinions were divided at the time even if hindsight shows it to appear foolish.

There weren't many people predicting Canelo defeating Mayweather.

 

In case anyone misremembered, this is the live thread from Canelo v Mayweather. The fight where this guy recons we should be crediting Canelo for one judge giving him a draw:

Official MAYWEATHER vs. CANELO Thread...

Mayweather absolutely clowned him.

MTF

 

GC called Floyd a super feather weight just to make it seem like Canelo fighting Mayweather at a catch weight of 152 was David vs Goliath but claims Canelo's natural weight is 168....omfg this is hilarious. Canelo is actually only 1 inch taller than Mayweather but Mayweather has a longer reach.




GC you're good at revising history.

 

Yes, but regardless of any of that, he got his shit punched in. Just like Tito did against Hopkins.

MTF

 

'One judge gave it to Canelo, as I recall'.

MTF

 

Exactly that's my point. You can't just list a bunch of stats to build a good argument on how great a fighter was. I have always said Trinidad was a great fighter but a bit overrated. It was hard not to rate him he was so exciting and such a good finisher. Hard not to like the guy. But in terms giving a fair assessment of him you do have to take the context into account. The significance of Hopkins vs Trinidad and how much of an impact that fight had on his career. To me the two most important moments in his career were Dlh and Hopkins.

 

Opinions weren't that split.

80% of both boxing writers and forum posters picked Tito over Hop.

It was a big upset.

 

I know Trinidad was favored. I was replying to a post about Tito-Hopkins vs Floyd-Canelo for their times.

My point was Mayweather-Alvarez went exactly as most people expected. Feebs already posted the fb thread.

 

I saw an old Golovkin beat Canelo twice.

 

That's Common Knowledge to Any Roy Fan, But Here's the Thing...

1. The Test was Administered by the Indiana State Boxing Commission, Who HADN'T Done a MAJOR Boxing Match Since the Late 70's-Early 80's Days of Marvin Johnson...

2. Not Only Did Roy and Richard Hall BOTH Piss Dirty, BOTH of Their B-Samples Came Back NEGATIVE!!!

As Is, It's RARE AF for Both Combatants to FAIL a Post-Fight Drug Test; It's UNfuckingPRECEDENTED for BOTH Combatants to Fail the 1st Test Then PASS the B-Sample...Feel Free to Name ANY Other Time That's Occurred, Cause REED Can Think of NONE...

Granted, REED Ain't Naive, He Doesn't Put PED Use Past ANYONE, Roy Jones Included...But the Indiana Findings Were Sooooooo RARE, REED Questions the Legitimacy of the Commission Itself...

If/When Roy Juiced, it Would've Likely Been to Bulk Up for the Ruiz Fight, Where he Still Had Very LITTLE Fat On Him...And Cutting the Muscle He Added in Just 6 Weeks (to Face Tarver), FOREVER Compromised Roy as We Knew Him...All the Kings Horses and All the Kings Men Couldn't Put Roy Back Together Again...

As for Canelo, Clenbuterol is a BREATHING Stimulant and Up Until the RE w/Triple G, the Biggest Knock on Canelo was Being a SPURT Fighter....He'd Go HARD This Round, Take the Next Round Off...Throw a Combination Early in a Round, Do Next to NATHAN for the Remainder of that Round...Canelo was ACUTELY Aware His Gas Tank WASN'T Elite Level, so Adding a BREATHING Stimulant Actually Makes a Bit of Sense...

Beyond That, No Fewer than 3-4 OTHER Guys, All Trained by Eddy Reynoso, Pissed Dirty for PED's...

REED Doesn't Even CARE if Canelo Juiced...The Vast Majority of ATHLETES, Not Just Boxers, are Taking Something to ENHANCE Their Performance...It Is What it Is...But You Have This CHILD Like Habit of Pointing Fingers Every Other Direction, While Trying to Make YOUR Rooting Interest Look Squeaky Clean...

Clearly, You're Going to CONTINUE to Drag Roy Thru the Mud, as Some Sort of Canelo DEFENSE Mechanism, But @ Least Be THOROUGH and FACTUAL in the Process Bruh...




REED

 

Do you know how Wikipedia works? You realize the website is not to be taken as the gospel on any topic. Its open to all and can be modified and edited by anyone including a rabbid Floyd Mayweather fan or TMT . Nice try though.

 

Who is that bald guy???

Looks like overrated ass ROY JONES to me!!

 

It's this bum from the 80s. Fluked a win over a Tommy Hearns and almost lost to Roberto Duran.

His name was like Melvin Haggle or something.

 

Is that right? I had no idea!

MTF

 

I only saw him fight once. Lost to some guy called Leonard. Fuckin' bum.

MTF

 

I've never said Whitaker was shot for Tito, I've actually said recently on here I consider it a similar level to Barrera's win over Hamed. I'd definitely rate higher than Canelo's wins over Kovalev, Cotto, Mosley, etc

Regardless, I named plenty of top names in there and you single out one? Of all of them, not even the worst?

 

If BF wrote the history books:

"In late 2019, a highly contagious and deadly respiratory virus emerged and swept the globe. The virus was developed on a farm in Pensacola, FL."

 

Helluva Argument, But the CURRENT Answer is Felix Trinidad...Canelo Has MORE Than Enough Time to Surpass and Potentially Put Some MEANINGFUL Space Btwn Him and Tito, However...

The WAY Each of Their Careers Matriculated is the Difference, for Now...

Trinidad had Double Digit Title Defenses @ '47 Including DEFINITIVE Victories Over Blocker, Camacho, Carr, Whittaker, etc...Yori Boy Wasn't a World Beater, But He was UNDEFEATED When Tito Stopped Him...

Trinidad for Sure LOST the DeLa Fight in REED's Opinion, but the Run He Went On Shortly Thereafter Fumigated the Stench of That Controversial "Win"...Trinidad Even CALLED his Own Shot - (Paraphrasing) "I'm Going to Move Up, Unify @ '54, Unify @ '60, Move Up to '68, Beat Roy Jones and Retire as the Greatest Fighter Ever"...

People Forget Fernando Vargas vs. David Reid was Being Discussed as a Super Welter Unification Bout; Out of Nowhere, Trinidad DECISIVELY Beats Both of Them, in the Span of 3 Bouts...Neither Man was Ever the Same...

4 Fights After DeLa, a Completely Unproven '60 Pound Trinidad DESTROYS William Joppy...Say What You Will About Joppy, But Who Else Beat Him THAT Way???...BHop Ruined Tito's Master Plan But the Fact Trinidad DARED to Be Great Still Resonates Today...

By Comparison, Canelo CHEAPENS His Own Exploits w/Contractual Shenanigans and CAREFUL Selection of Opponents...It's Like Trinidad Jumped Out of an Airplane w/a Parachute that MIGHT Work, Whereas Canelo Jumped w/3 Parachutes GUARANTEED To Work...

After Winning the Middleweight Title from Cotto, Canelo Wasted Nearly 2 FULL Years, Frivolously Offering Catchweights and Flat Fees to GGG...Instead of the Fight we WANTED, Boxing Fans Got Canelo vs. Amir Khan, Liam Smith and Chavez Jr Instead...

Unlike Most, REED Thinks Canelo-GGG was Split...GGG Clearly Won the 1st Bout, Canelo Clearly Won the RE...But That's @ Least 1 Additional LOSS Canelo Should Have on His Record...

Contractual Manipulation and Picking/Choosing of Opponents Continues to Be the Norm for Canelo - That's an Undeniable FACT, Not a Matter of Fandom or Lack Thereof...He's Substituted QUALITY for QUANTITY...He's Faced GOOD Names, But Not the BEST Names (@ the Time), Necessarily...

Thing Is, Canelo STILL Has Time to Rectify His Situation...David Benavidez is the ONLY Stone Left Unturned @ '68 and if Canelo Were to Beat Beterbiev and Bivol @ '75 (No BS Stipulations), the Kovalev FARCE Would Be Forgotten as Well...

TODAY, Felix Trinidad is the Greater Fighter But That's Definitely Subject to Change...

Head to Head, Tito Wins Convincingly @ '54, Canelo Wins Convincingly @ '68...

'60 Would Be the TRUEST Measure of Both Men...Those That Troubled/Defeated Tito Attacked Him from Angles and/or Made Him Re-Set His Feet...Canelo Does NEITHER w/Regularity...No, He's Not a Face 1st Stalking Brawler, But Canelo Attacks from the "Front Door" So to Speak, Which is a DANGEROUS Place to Be w/Trinidad...Canelo Could Get AWAY w/It @ '68, but NOT @ '60 or '54 in REED's Opinion...





REED

 

Canelo from the GGG rematch and Jacobs fight would beat Tito handedly IMO.

 

Good post. I can respect your honesty. I would have to agree at the highest level where the stakes are so high. I wouldn't put it past any fighter to use advantages like steroids. It would be very naive not to. And for the record I was being facetious on that whole Roy thing. He's an all time great fighter. In his prime he looked untouchable. In his prime he would destroy Canelo and I never said he wouldn't. I just don't believe Froch, Kessler , Calzaghe or Ward would.

 

If it’s pre-Hopkins version of Trinidad, I think he beats Canelo convincingly via decision or late stoppage if Canelo decides to really slug it out.

To beat Trinidad, you have to either have the ability to evade and counter from angles or you have to be able to back Trinidad up and neutralize his power. Not even the Canelo from the second Golovkin fight do I see doing that (which IMO he still lost despite doing better than the first).

 

Tommy Hearns is half a foot taller than Qawi and has half a foot of reach on him. Does that make him bigger? They fought in the same division....

Canelo is literally talking about fighting at cruiserweight. He's a former LHW champion. Mayweather started his career, had his best years and never had any difficulty making 130. Canelo drained himself massively to get down to 154, and there was a 13 year age difference between them.

Canelo at 23 had to kill himself to get down to 152. He normally rehydrated to the low 170s at 154. Mayweather at 36 didn't even bother coming in at 152.

The size difference between Mayweather and Canelo is 100% comparable to the size difference between Tito and Hopkins.

 

Your whole argument is based on "14 year old Canelo" supposedly draining himself to make 154 and this proves Mayweather was at huge size disadvantage. But this actually undermines your entire argument. Think about it if Canelo struggled so much with making weight at 154 then Floyd asking Canelo to come in at 152 to completely drain him puts Canelo at a huge disadvantage and Floyd knew this. If they are roughly the same height and same reach the only advantage Canelo had was weight unless you have a green inexperienced 152 pound weight drained Canelo. It was still an impressive win by Mayweather who was naturally a smaller fighter although not by as much as you make it seem. It wasn't David vs Golaith gtfo.

 

My whole argument is based on the FACT Floyd Mayweather is your average sized super featherweight. He's literally the same size as Shakur Stevenson. He slowly added miniscule muscle mass over more than ten years to build up to 150, and he actually weighed more at the weigh in than he did on fight night. Canelo is talking about fighting at cruiserweight now

That's a massive size difference. And he didn't 'supposedly' drain, it's well documented. According to the TOTT, he was 172 against Trout and 171 against Lara. Canelo was 165 for Floyd, and Mayweather was 15lbs lighter.

I've always been of the mind making 152 hurt Canelo, but being even more drained than usual doesn't excuse being shut out and schooled by a 36 year old who peaked five weight classes lower.

I've never said it was David and Goliath, I said it was the same as Hopkins-Tito. If you think that's a David and Goliath situation, I fail to see why you even brought it up to begin with.

 

I think you're focusing on statistics and missing the bigger picture once again. That seems to be a pattern with you. I'm not sure you understand how taxing weight cuts are on the human body. The average person has a hard time losing 5 pounds but top combat athletes can lose up to 30 pounds in a matter of days. You're right they can gain it all back in as little as 24 hours but it puts their bodies under great stress and often under perform because of it. The fact that you can Google some stats about Canelo's actual weight on the night of the Fight doesn't prove anything or tell us anything we didn't already know. And this whole drain yourself to make weight is not a Canelo thing all fighters do it. Nobody is walking around at 154 and fights at 154 and if they did they would be in a world of pain because their opponent who walks around 170 would have a huge advantage.

 

I'm only arguing with statistics because they're the most objective way of saying what's plainly visible. Canelo is way bigger than Mayweather.

Yeah, what you've just described is exactly what happened. Mayweather came on BELOW 152 at the weigh in, them weighed even less on the night. Canelo on the other hand, rehydrated 13lbs and outweighed Mayweather by 15lbs. Canelo is naturally far bigger than 165, and Mayweather is naturally far smaller than 150. What's hard to get about this?

And FYI, I know exactly how hard it is to be dehydrated, because I've had to do myself multiple times.

 

AgREED. Tito was no middleweight.

Which of those fighters do you think Canelo beats?

MTF