Harder puncher, Leonard or ODLH?

No man, I don't want to debate you. You are on a par with Double L, too dumb to even bother arguing with.

 

whatever. I think you can be a little bitch, but I don't think you're stupid, especially compared to some around here. i'll be here when you change your mind.

 

Leonard.

I've never seen Oscar at WELTERWEIGHT score the types of KOs that Leonard did over Green, Ranzany, Garcia, etc. Those were some absolutely SICKENING powershots that Leonard was landing on these guys.

Oscar had a pretty good left hook but his "power" is based more or less on what he did to Ike Quartey in the 12th round of their fight, and the fight with Vargas at 154. Personally, I feel Leonard would have KO'd BOTH of those guys. De La Hoya didn't even KO Quartey. I think Leonard would have put both of those guys on the canvas and would have finished them off.

 

Hagler laughs at everyone's punches. Dude had adamatium in his chin.

 

Name the decent fighters that DLH blasted away before Bredahl, who he chased away---he didn't blow him away. Dorsey doesn't count because he was cut. He wasn't blasted away.

 

Leonard never fought below Welterweight as a pro. You make no sense. DLH was starving himself to make 130-135. There's no real comparison until 140, and DLH only had two fights there. Try looking at their respective competition on the road to their first world titles.

 

As time goes on, Leonard's power grows. Soon it'll be said that he hit harder than Tito.

 

mikE, you're very wrong on a number of points here.

DLH's competition was not better on his way to Bredahl. He fought a lot of guys who couldn't punch hard enough to discourage him, and they were softees to capitalize on his Golden Boy image. Check Ray's opposition: Dick Ecklund (skilled and talented boxer who later blew his career on drugs), Randy Shields (Beat Ray for a National title as an amateur), Floyd Mayweather Sr (world ranked boxer at the time), Pete Ranzany (former #1 challenger).

DLH's competition leading up to Bredahl was shit for the most part. Give me a break. Only Dorsey and perhaps Jeff Mayweather were credible (and Jeff was way better as a trainer than as a fighter).

There's no comparison in terms of their opposition.

 

Oscar only had 11 fights on his way to Bredahl. I'm looking at their respective first 22 fights because that's the last time that dlh fought at 140 or less. Oscar's competition through 22 fights of his career was better than Leonard's first 22 fights.

 

Left hook probably about equal. Leonard hit much harder with his right than Oscar.

 

Leonard weighed 141, 141, 142, 143, 145, 145, 143 for his first 7 fights, respectively. That's pretty much a jr welter, but that's not the point. P4P Oscar hit harder at 140 and below than Leonard (at any weight). That's my point and argument. I already said I don't care who hit harder at 147 and above literally.

While I agree that there usually is an advantage to cutting weight, Leonard's 5 lightest weights resulted in 3 distance fights, a ko3 and a ko5. And he weighed more than all of these guys.

 

Dude, you're way off on this one. DLH is actually taller than Leonard, but he was literally starving himself to fight much smaller guys (not eating for three days or eating ice chips to make the weight for the weigh-in). <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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Not only that, but have you looked at the records of the guys he was banging out? Bear in mind he was fighting at lightweight, but when he fought for his first title, he fought a literal Jr. Lightweight Danish pastry---the weakest champion he could find: Jimmi Bredahl.<o></o>
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It's easy to look like a killer when you are fighting guys who couldn't crack eggs. <o></o>
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Oscar's pro debut (Lamar Williams): He fought a guy who was <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:date Month="1" Day="1" Year="2005">5-1-1</st1:date>, but the guy had only one KO and that was against a guy who had never fought pro before or since.<o></o>
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Oscar's second fight (Clifford Hicks): His record looks ok at first glance---13-6, but then you see that out of Cliff's 13 wins, most guys had records of 0-1, 0-3, or no record at all. <o></o>
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Oscar's third fight (Paris Alexander): <st1:date Month="6" Day="2" Year="2015">15-6-2</st1:date>. Three stoppage wins for a 20% KO percentage. Two of those victims had no wins and the other guy was 1-7 with all losses by KO/TKO.<o></o>
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Oscar's fourth fight (Curtis Strong): same story. Cream pie who padded his record against D.O.A. opponents.<o></o>
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Oscar's fifth fight (Jeff Mayweather): 6 KOs/TKOs in 23 wins. 3 of those victims had no wins but they definitely had losses.<o></o>
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#6 was Mike Grable: His record looks good at first glance, but he went from fighting guys with records like 0-1, 0-2, 0-4 to fighting an Olympic gold medallist.<o></o>
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In fact, that's a common factor for DLH. The guys he fought before Bredahl were creampies who couldn't punch and feasted on no-hopers. <o></o>
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And you're comparing those loser's to Ray's record on the way up as proof that DLH hit harder? Check Ray’s opponents on his way up as a comparison. Most of them at least had a pulse. ::<o></o>

 

DLH's KO percentage dropped after Bredahl because he started fighting more experienced guys who weren't there just to lay down. That's why he looked so impressive when he was first coming up at 130-135. If Ray had starved and fought midgets, he would have had a much higher KO percentage as a result.

Ray was matched against a higher level of opposition early in his career.

 

Tru dat.
And DLH didnt stop anyone like the original 'Golden Boy' - Donny Lalonde, either! :crafty:

 

ray would be gay (DLH) 11 out of 10 times

 

what kind of #ucking question is this leanard by a mile

 

Come on.

After Bredahl, but before moving to 147, Oscar's record was 11-0 (9).

Leonard, in his 12th through 22nd fights, had a record of 11-0 (5).

Through their first 22 fights, Delahoya's opponents included:

Mago, Chavez, Leija, Genaro Hernandez, R Ruelas, and JJ Molina.

Leonard's opponents included (afaict) not even one fucking opponent who ever held a world title.

Who hit harder? Who had the better competition through their first 22 fights? You might as well be arguing that Roseanne Barr is better looking than Alessandra Ambrosio.

 

DLH was fighting guys in those 11 fights after Bredahl who were moving up from Featherweight or Jr. Lightweight to face him, and they were guys who spent the vast majority of their fights at that lower weight (which means they were naturally smaller fighters).

If you look at the stoppages for DLH, in his first 11 fights, he fought garbage. That doesn't even register with you but it should. The second set of fights---well, let's look at those. Your first "champion" for DLH:

DLH Fight #12: Bredahl---the weakest of any of the Jr. Lightweight champions at that time. He was 16-0, but like the creampuffs before him, his KO percentage was horrible (5 stoppages). His unknowns were worse than DLH's leading up to that fight---and that's saying something. In fact, Bredahl's last fight before DLH was a WBO title defense won on points over 8 rounds!!!! Bredahl had a pretty record, but I could run up a pretty record fighting no-hopers.

Ray's Fight #12: Rafael Rodriguez with a record of 22-8-1. Rodriguez didn't have that pretty record, but Bredahl wouldn't have either if he had had to fight Harold Weston, Hedgemon Lewis (twice), and Billy Backus. Backus was a former champ, Lewis fought for the title, and Weston was a talented guy who fought for the title a few times but had his career ended by Thomas Hearns via a detached retina. Bottom line: Bredahl fought unknowns, Rodriguez fought former champs and title challengers.

 

Remember, you have to look at quality of opposition and not just glossy records.

DLH #13: Giorgio Campanella. Again, pretty record (20-0), but I'll let you look up whom he had fought (and I think they were all from Italy), but he would have had three less fights if he didn't fight the same no-hoper three times. Even though Campanella sucked, DLH got dropped by him.

Ray #13: Dick Ecklund. Have you seen The Fighter? Micky Ward's older brother. Tough guy, skilled boxer, but he couldn't punch like Micky. He was a good fighter though he wasn't ranked at that point.

Fights #12 is a tossup. Do you like Bredahl (who ran from DLH like a Jr. Lightweight Morrade Hakkar) or the veteran Rodriguez who had actually fought a few title challengers and former champs?

Fight #13: If you look at who Campanella fought and who Ecklund fought, you might give it to Campanella---I'm not sure who else would though.

I could go through the rest of these, but it's taken longer than I thought it would and I have to put my kid to sleep.

DLH's record looks nice on the surface, but for those first 13 fights or so, he fought dead meat. Ray was given a higher level of comp. Maybe I'll have time to do the next 9 tomorrow. I'll try.

 

Oh, one last thing. The next fight for DLH is a good stoppage win for DLH, but Carl Griffith was never the same fighter after he almost killed Sergei Artemiev. Artemiev had brain surgery after the fight and never fought again---and that ruined Carl Griffith. He was brought in as a warm body and nothing else.

Ray fought world-ranked Floyd Mayweather Sr. Floyd Sr was on his way up at that point whereas Griffith was definitely not.

 

Buddy, why did Oscar blow away his bums and Leonard didn't? Because Oscar hit harder for the weight class. There's really no other way to explain it.

I disagree that Leonard's bums were 'better' than Oscar's, but it doesn't really matter. These first 10 or so fighters were not good and Oscar blasted them and Leonard didn't.

The next 10 or so, it's not even close...Oscar's opponent's are far superior and STILL Oscar blew them away and Leonard didn't.

Then Oscar moved up in weight. I stop the analysis here because at 147 and above, it's arguable. Results were similar and whatever. But never in his career was Leonard as hard a puncher as Oscar was at 140 and below.

 

If we're talking Oscar at lightweight I'd agree he hit harder than a welterweight Leonard. But if Leonard had boiled down to fight a bunch of guys Jese James Leija's size with 36 hours to rehydrate he'd have blown them out too.

 

Your generalizations are ridiculous. For one, Ray didn't try to stay down at 140 or below. He was initially going to retire after the Olympics to go to college. DLH, by comparison, turned pro with a signing bonus of $1 million, and was starving himself to make weight and fight smaller guys. There's no comparison. If you don't understand the bout by bout comparison, then there's really nothing left to discuss. You think he hit harder because he starved himself and fought an inferior calibre of opposition.

You seem to have this flatheaded way of thinking: DLH stopped his guys more often than Ray did his, so DLH hit harder.

Who did Oscar stop that was comparable to Hearns or Benitez?

 

If Ray had starved for days and eaten ice chips to make weight, he could have EASILY crushed Oscar's calibre of opponents. Ray was shorter with a similar wingspan. Does anyone think it would have taken Ray longer to stop Oscar's opposition? Of course not. He and Oscar were about the same size, but Oscar starved himself and fought smaller fighters.

 

Great point, Hut. Oscar not only fought smaller guys coming up in weight, but he got to rehydrate for a day or so. Ray was fighting those guys on the same day as the weigh-in. It enabled DLH to be artificially smaller p4p, when he wouldn't have been if the rules were the same.

 

Well, yeah.

 

I will go with Oscar "Gentleman on the streets. Lady in the sheets" De La Hoya

 

Some fighters become better punchers p4p when they cut weight, but not all do.

Now that you've conceded I'm right, you've resorted to wishful speculation to save face. You know where Ray put his face on his trainer? You're just doing the same thing to Ray. Believe it or not, it's okay that he didn't hit as hard as Oscar p4p. It's also okay that John John Molina was a lot better than Dickie Ecklund.