Haye at HW...?

Skill for skill they don't match up. He'll make them look like amatuer fighters before he knocks them out.

 

Yeah but he is even faster than Haye:tease:


Sure. Haye is a heavyweight size guy, I think with those muscles he could weight 220 lbs without looking fat at all. And yes, his right hand is so quick and so strong that it could hurt even the heavyweights.

However what I still refuse to believe is that in 2002 or so all heavyweights suddenly gathered together and decided to stop training, slow down and forget about boxing technique just for the hell of it. After all, these same guys were very skilful as amateurs. I think that beating these 250 lbs guys is just not as easy as you would think just comparing them to smaller men. There has to be something that makes it difficult. There has to be a reason why a guy like Vasily Jirov, excellent technician and at one point the best cruiser, proved to be a very average heavyweight, as did Al Cole.

 

Juan Diaz also has the better technique and body coordination

 

Oh, I can agree with you....I'm not saying that Haye will mop the floor with the HWTs....just countering the notion that Haye is a "small man."

He's not - vs. Bonin he was pretty much an average-to-large HWT. People underestimate just how big David is.

As to your last point....both of those guys had styles that FAVORED them in the Ammys and against smaller men.

They didn't change their styles vs. HWTs - and Vasily's style in particular was MADE to depend on strength, power, workrate and phyisicaly overwhelming men of the same or smaller size.

Doesn't work at HWT.

It's what happens to Hatton when he moves up.

And btw - Jirov has never been an "excellent technician."

All that being said - I don't see any problem with admitting that the skill and conditioning level at HWT in this current era is less than that of others....to me it's pretty evident.

Peace.

 

Jirvo was named the most outstanding of '96 Olympics so I think he knew how to box. He was no Pernell whitaker type of course but skilled for atall, aggressive guy.

And I do agree that these heavyweights of now are worse conditioned than those of earlier decades, I do even admit that barring Wlad, Povetkin, Chagaev their skills are weaker (if by skill we understand traditional, orthdox boxing techniques). What I am saying is that head to head, these guys would beat up the heavies of 70s for example

 

Don't go there, because I'll have to dismantle you again. Stats and numbers and everything. ::

You consistently overrate the "average" size of today's HWTs based off a few very big guys....and underrate the HWTs of the 70's, who are basically in almost the same era as today's.

Leave it at that.

And btw, I'm not that sold on Povetkin and his skill.

Lastly...yes, Jirov was named outstanding fighter IN THE AMATEURS.

It's a whole different ball of wax in the pros and you know this.

Am I saying he had no skill? Absolutely not.

But in the Pros there were sometimes gaping holes in his skillset and defense, which he made up for with his aggression, power, stamina and workrate.

I would not call him an 'excellent technician' is all I am saying. Jirov is not the kind of guy that comes to mind when I hear that term.

Peace.

 

Jirov was basic. Not a skill-less bum, but hardly a master technician.

 

Knowing Absolutely NATHAN about Macaroni, REED WAS Impressed, yet he's CURBING his Enthusiam All the Same...

"However", like REED Said On Another Related Thread, David Haye has the LOOK, PERSONALITY & STYLE to B a Crossover Boxing STAR...

Being 6'3, that's MORE than Enough Height to EFFECTIVELY Carry the Poundage Required to Campaign @ Heavyweight...

Moreso, Haye's Gonna B a TRUE Puncher No Matter WHAT Division he's In...Obviously, His CHIN is Gonna ULTIMATELY Determine his Heavyweight Success though...

REED INSTANTLY Became a FAN of the Cats POTENTIAL, but we'll See where he Go's from Here...


REED

 

I think Haye will do quite well at heavyweight.

 

Yep it all rests on his chin. In his stoppage loss, it was more fatigue, but he WAS hurt no doubt, and he was also hurt against Mormeck.

Being less spongy at heavyweight, hopefully his chin is sturdier.

As long as he gets knocked down but gets up he'll be OK, because he has that hardcore right hand, he'll always be able to score a come from behind KO, or if not, opponents should be somewhat weary.

I just hope when up against heavyweight power he doesn't get sparked with 1 punch.

 

Haye has definitely the offensve arsenal to hang at heavy...he can definitely dish it out

However the question is..

Can he take it?

opcorn:

 

Heavyweight is a offensive mans division. Unless Haye goes into his shell (which he did do in a few fights @ cruiser, when someone took his shots early on) he can have a decent run there.

I think more than his chin, it's how his power translates that will matter most. If he can still bang, he'll have a chance...because more often than not, he's going to land first.

Also, how he reacts to not being able to control range like he did @ cruiser, will be a ig test. He's got by on being the bigger man, alot of the time. His right hand counter won't work so well when the opponents jab isnt falling short by a few inches.

 

Honestly, I just think that the transition from Ammy (where speed, technique and eye catching 'point scoring' are of the most fundamental importance) to Pro has proven beyond most of the HW's in recent years.

In the pro's, those things are obviously important, but other elements such as Chin, Power, Heart and willingness to dig in the trenches play a huge part: much more so than in the Amms.

The classic 'exhibit A' is Audley Harrison. He won Olympic Gold in Sydney with his solid technique, height and reach and an excellent jab. However, when he went to the pro game, his lack of chin, inability to mix it when he got hit back and overall deficiencies were exposed for all to see.

Haye is the exact opposite. His technique, especially his want of holding his left hand so low, is pretty flawed, but he has no hesitation in looking for his man, even if it means getting his ass KD. And he really BANGS- that right hand is a beast of a shot (at CW, anyway). These make him much more suitable to the HW pro game than some of the good Ammy's who have tried to make the transition lately IMO...

 

I dont know why Wlad doesn't have a special place in America's heart,..

He fights with the fear and caution of a Fraud Mayweather, to preserve the 'W' is all that matters, he dominates with the jab, and refuses to mix up his shots like Winky Wright, and he clinches like Bernard Hopkins to avoid and spoil incoming heat, and they're all former or current 'p4p4p4p4p4p4p 1#' fighters? :dunno: :crafty: .

 

david deron haye looked after macaroni last night, who has a place on next season dancing with the stars.

haye would look after wlad if that fight was made IMO. Haye will be a very good heavyweight and will win a world title

 

I definately wanna see Haye at HW!

He is big enough to handle the weight and seems like a big puncher.

I had never seen either Haye or Macaranelli before last night. My understanding is that Haye was already the champion at the cruiserweight and Macaranelli was the second best fighter there.

Clearly there is nothing left for Haye at that weight.

 

Macca wasn't the best fighter there, IMO. Still, he's beaten the best there in Mormeck...there in't anything left.

But I'd much rather see Bell and Haye, than Haye vs any heavyweight.

 

Haye's first fight should be against "Touch of Sleep"

Can't wait to see Haye get KTFO'd

 

I wouldnt mind seeing Haye - Bell come to think of it Tam.

 

Good call. I forgot about Bell. I would love to see that matchup:bears:

 

:bears: Tam's done real well. He's done real well.

 

dsimon writes:

Bell is a riote! :: I think Haye would stagger him for a while.... Remember that Mormeck staggered him. But Bell has a lot of heart and keeps coming. Bell is just an exciting fighter. I don't know if Haye could ice Bell and it might be a good test for Haye when Bell waltzs across the ring like a drunken sailor after a Haye shot and starts putting some leather back to him, like Bell continually did to Mormeck in the second fight.

I think Haye would have to be careful not to punch himself out against Bell and in fact Bell might be a tougher fight than ana verage Heavy in the division right now.... tougher than Rahman thats for sure.

But Haye is right. Why stick around that division when the heavy weights look ripe for the plucking? Does he really need a war with Bell to prepare for the likes of Sam Peter and Ruiz?

 

Haye will crush Bell in under 3 rounds, no problem.

 

I don't care what the scales say, there really aren't many giants in the division. You have Klitchkoe (chinny) and Valuev (bum), thats about it. The rest with high weights are either flabby or carrying slabs of useless show muscle like McCline. Haye is a natural muscular 220lb guy, size won't be an issue.

 

Agreed. Great post.

 

With the heavyweights out there now he isn't going to have to take much. 10-15 years ago if he moved up his chin would have got him in trouble.

 

I tend to agree.

I mean, the consensus No1 HW (Wlad) is as chinny as hell, but he 'reigns supreme' at HW because the rest are so slow, plodding, out of shape and pitiful generally that no one really imagines any of them can hit him and expose the weakness.

So long as Haye's power carries the extra poundage he should be able to hit people with authority and in the reasonable knowledge that he is unlikely to be hit back in any really meaningful way.

Haye is quick and mobile for a 6ft 3in, 200lb+ guy. There is very little 'quick' or 'mobile' about almost any ranked HW at this moment in time.

 

Or even 'good', for that matter. opcorn:

 

Goddamn Mustard, will you please kindly STOP making my point so succinctly- it exposes my unnecessarily discursive posts!!! :flip:

::

 

:bears: :bears: great post

I agree 100%

in fact he IS a HW really.. I think he'll do great