Heavy weight division, what a joke!

Maybe that's why you are economical with them

He was inexperienced in relation to how fighters come on in leaps and bounds once they have won a particular title or a particular fight. Consider that many people felt we saw the real Lewis vs Mike Grant and Botha only after he had gotten past Holyfield. In relation to that, Vitali was inexperienced. He had not experienced that massive stage, fighting THE MAN on the mans terms and the mans notice.

Thats right. And Lewis had beaten Golota and Ruddock etc but his most dominant performances, at least those which people felt represented the real Lewis, came after he had beaten Oldyfield at the 2nd time of asking.

You are merely using the wrong set of values. There is experience in that someone has had 300 amateur fights, and then there is experience in the sense of big-night experience. Grant had neither when he fought Lewis, but it is the latter which was most pertinent. Lewis' extended amateur career didn't beat Grant. Grants lack of an amateur career didn't beat Grant. Grant was beat long before it got down to brass tacks, because as tough as Lou Savarese was down at the local meat packers union, Lewis at MSG was just that bit tougher. The occasion itself is half the battle. I would opine that 2 weeks notice for the biggest fight of his life at the Staples was more of a detriment to Vitali than having only 2-3 top names on his resume.

That's something that can be argued back and forth so......

 

Yep, I was right. My definition of 'relatively inexperienced' is far different from yours.

By your definition, the only way Vitali was going to lose the 'relatively inexperienced' tag was by fighting Lewis, which means he was always going to be relatively inexperienced going into a fight with Lennox even if Vitali was 50 with 200 fights.

That, my friend, is a stretch of a defintion which is really funny.

 

You said that, not me. I never even remotely intimated that. What I suggested was that experience, proper experience, is ideally a blend of both. I mean, Oleg Maskaev was rushed into a fight with former HW Champ McCall after 8 fights. We dont say he was an experienced fighter after being bashed in 1 round, simply because he had taken a beating from a better fighter.

Similarly, we dont say that Ricky Hatton had big fight experience until after he fought Kostya Tszyu...even though he had what, 30+ fights before he fought Tszyu.

Vitali was always going to be "relatively inexperienced" to Lewis until he had some big fights of his own in the major arenas on the major networks. Consider how comfortable he looked vs Williams, now that he had the pressure cooker of the Lewis, Sanders fights under his belt.

Hitherto, he had been a predominantly European based fighter who was trying to re-establish himself in the division after the Byrd debacle. Different story, no?

You are declining to acknowledge that experience can come in forms other than the age of the fighter in question, or the number of fights they have had.

 

No, I absolutely am not. I already said that Vitali had age, had an extensive amateur background, had 30+ pro fights, had won a belt, defended a belt and even suffered defeat.

Aside from fight a mega fight with Lennox Lewis, what experience was he lacking exactly? Don't go off an a diatribe about when Lennox Lewis was considered his best or experienced. At that exact point in Vitali's career, what experience could he possibly have added to his resume short of a big fight with Lennox?

Hell, I didn't even add the fact that Vitali had also been a kickboxing world champion. Seriously, what the hell else could he have done to be considered EXPERIENCED?

 

Yes..but my point was that it's not a knock on the Klits to say that Lennox was better.

 

The timing of the Lewis fight was fine, viz. the juncture it came at in Klitschos overall career.The notice was shit. At least you are acknowledging the slight difference between all the fights he had hitherto the one with Lewis, and the Lewis fight itself. It should not be lost on anyone that Vitali faced into a fight the like of which he had never had before with a fortnights notice.

Such moments have been known to eat men alive, swallow them whole, and you never really get the best out of yourself until you have been through it a few times and come out successful at the other end.

 

We don't even know if Lewis was better. We know that a Lewis that was passed his best physically beat a guy who was yet to peak in terms of experience, and we know Lewis got fucking lucky that Vitali cut like he never had before or has since, despite facing fast spiteful punchers.

We know that the "3 minutes" that Gatti, Marciano, etc got in title fights was denied Vitali.

We know that Vitali was cut like he was never before or since. We know he took the fight on 2 weeks notice.

Lewis has a better resume, but I have a feeling that Vitali would have handled Tua and Holyfield, and that old shot Tyson with no real qualms. As for Golota, Vitali doesn't knock him out in 1 round, he just beats him.

Trplsecs assertion that neither brother could have ever beaten Lewis is shaky.

You can make Lewis a favourite, by all means.

 

Mythical matchups are as bad as p4p lists,.. they're just fantasy based shit spoken as if they were a 100% fact. Styles make fights, upsets, struggles,.. always happen in the course of every fighters career,..

Lewis does have the better resume, he defeated everybody he ever faced,.. and on that basis, he will go down in history as the greater heavyweight,.. he also pulled out the victory against Vitali in a tough fight,..where it can be argued that NEITHER were in thier so called 'primes' at the time,.. but Lewis did win,.. he can't be blamed for Vitali's ineffective defence against Lennox's albatross reach, which stylistically made the difference.

 

That's all I am saying.

And who knows...maybe if they rematched, Vitali would have had something for his man...maybe that Albatross reach would not have made as much difference this time.

That's my point.

But Trplesec is completely ruling it out, which is daft.

 

Lucky? What was lucky about Lewis repeatedly punching Vitali in the face and causing those horrific vaginal wounds?

MTF :dunno:

 

Other fighters have hit him and not cut him. He got tagged nicely by Sanders, who was fast....no cuts.

I mean, Billy Schwer was a noted bleeder, he had some plastic surgery, fought a lot of good fights against tough fighters, some heavy hitters....no more cuts.

Then feather assed Stevie Johnston hits him in their title fight and fucking cuts are back.

Thats my point.

Also...he still should have gotten the "traditional" 3 minutes.

 

A bad cut caused by a punch IS lucky. Fighters don't go into the ring with a gameplan to cut an opponent and hope the ref stops it.

 

It is lucky in that Vitali did not have a history of cuts. It seems he just happened to get cut up by Lewis. I mean, Golota had a history of cuts, or of cutting, and got hit by 50 unanswered power shots....not a mark on him.

Lewis intended to hit and to hurt, and he did just that, so the element of "luck" is non-existent in that strict regard.

But as you point out.....he cannot have possibly hoped to end the fight on cuts beforehand.

We digress.

If Lewis is somehow related to the current "Malaise"...then his procrastination following the Klitschko fight is as relevant as our supposed pining for his "dominant" self.

 

Maybe,.. nothing's an absolute fact,.. but Lewis did prove to be the more skillfully rounded heavyweight in regards to offense and defence that night, and his experience helped him to make the difference,.. whereas Vitali's style is wicked against shorter opponents,.. but nowhere near as effective against rivals who are close to his height, and in the case of Lewis, having the superior reach. They both had thier strengths,.. but it was Vitali's defensive weakness that proved to be the key for Lewis to take advantage of with his superior power, and it subsequently won him the fight on cuts. Nothing flukey about that,.. Lewis is just an awesome great heavyweight, and in my opinion, the best of all time, Vitali is also a great heavyweight, no matter how much people scream bitterly, he is.

 

Imagine if Vitali and Wladimir had a Phil and Grant Eastenders type of situation and became enemies and wanted to prove their might and place themselves in the same ring to fight for the World Heavyweight belt! That would wet your appetite and wait for that fight to happen!

 

Legitimate point. But I think one has far more to do with it than the other.

This is much like the end of Ali's career. Think about, if you're old enough to recall. As amazing a champion as Larry Holmes would become, the era itself was dreadfully boring for a couple of reasons.

First, in terms of eras, he followed the brashest, most out-spoken champion in history. Ali could entertain in and out of the ring. He was a walking, talking circus that made even non boxing fans take notice. Holmes, by comparison, had the charisma of a railroad crosstie.

Second, despite the war with Norton that started the Holmes reign, the remainder of the era lacked compelling match-ups. In my opinion, few people really cared about the Holmes championship run until the black versus white overtones of Holmes-Cooney.

So, 20 years from now Wlad or Vitali maybe regarded as amazing champions when people can objectively look back and do a single-minded comparison to other HW's that shared the era. Hell, who knows, by then the Chambers fight might be regarded as riveting.

 

The Chambers fight can be remembered in a number of ways...but one thing is for sure....anyone who writes an account of it, or gives an account of it, must be man enough to accept that it ended on a 1 punch KO that left Chambers completely out of it. I have been reading a lot of these so called articles and it seems that the KO is glossed over.

Joe Louis vs Walcott II was 10 rounds of pure shite that ended with Walcott being unceremoniously removed from his senses and left out cold on the mat.

Oddly enough, Joe gets credit for the win.

 

yo

I think Lewis hit alot harder than Sanders!

 

:dunno:

Thats not the point...the point is he hit hard enough to open cuts....which never opened in Vitalis case.

What I am saying is that Lewis was fortunate that Vitali got cut, that night, of all nights.

People will then say that Lewis would have cut him up anyways, any night, and I question that belief on the grounds that he has faced guys who should have cut him up if he were cut-prone at all.

 

i dont know, i always thought Lewis could of gone up another level in that fight. Lewis usually fought better when he was under pressure. Look at the way he came back under pressure against briggs.

 

Yes, Briggs.....the mainstay of legendary resumes

Lewis was a better fighter than the Americans ever gave him credit for, thats for sure.

So is Vitaly, and it remains my steadfast conviction that he could have done a job on Lewis if he had been allowed to build towards a fight with Lewis over a 2-3 month period, instead of a 2 week period.

 

i doubt Vitali, was man who was under prepard or not in peak condition for that fight, in those situations you have to take your chances.

swings and round abouts.

 

You are making it sound like Lewis held all the aces when he fought Vitali when, in truth, both men were as disadvantaged as the other.

Lewis was not prepared to fight Vitali any more than Vitali was prepared to fight Lewis. Lewis was supposed to fight a rematch with Tyson, which fell through, and then trained to fight Kirk Johnson, who pulled out late in the day through injury.

How come none of this important stuff makes your analysis? :dunno:

You can gloss it all you like, but Lewis came into the ring that night at a career high weight and to fight a guy totally different to the one he was meant to fight. If it also worth noting that Lewis didn't rate Vitali at all and showed him almost no respect at all in trying to blast him out.

Lewis may have been behind on points, but Vitali was out on his feet in the sixth round of that fight and looked ready to go. The cuts he sustained, through 'lucky' Lennox Lewis punches were absolutely horrific.

Could a better prepared Vitali have beaten that version of Lewis? Possibly, but it is nonsense to try and suggest that poor Vitali had the deck completely stacked against him when fighting a guy who was just about to retire, had trained for a totally different fighter and was as out of shape as someone at that stage of his career might be expected.

In any event, it is for the realm of mythical matchups. ::

MTF

 

Since we started this conversation, I have re-watched the fight, or at least parts of it, several times.

Am I the only one that thought Lewis was taking over the fight before it was stopped?

Vitali had his moments. He was ahead on points. He hurt Lennox early and had him tired. But at the end of that fight it was Lewis that still had the sting in his punches and was doing the most damage.

The preparation and experience excuses are horseshit. Vitali was a seasoned professional with a ton of experience under his belt. He was at his normal weight and in good shape. Lennox Lewis was just a different animal.

Again, to say anything other than Lewis won the fight is complete speculation.

 

If a man has a bad cut...OBVIOUSLY he'd be hampered by that and his opponent would be spurred on.

The cut made the difference. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

Wouldn't the guy in fear of the fight being stopped be "spurred on" also? Or did I miss the boxing history lesson in which Ezzard Charles took the HW title from Marciano because he was so spurred on by the severe cut on Marciano's nose. Oh wait, that didn't happen. In fact, I think the opposite happened. Yes, I am sure I read that somewhere.

I haven't addressed the 'luck' aspect beign tossed around about the cut either.

When someone hits as hard as Lennox hit Vitali, three things can happen. First, you get knocked the fuck out. Second, if you can take the shot you hang around to take more and eventually damage will occur to your face either in the form of cuts or swelling. Lastly, I guess you could cry about how bad the punches hurt and quit.

The bottom line is that a hard ass punch caused a massive cut. It wasn't a headbutt or a light, lucky punch. It was a crushing shot, the likes of which knocked out many of his previous opponents. Vitali had a good enough chin to take the shot, but the force of it did other damage.

Sure Vitali wouldn't get cut the same way everytime a similar punch landed. Sure there was luck involved with it causing such a terrible gash. But to dismiss the whole thing as simply a random stroke of luck would diminish how big a factor the sharp, powerful punches of Lennox Lewis really were. When he hits you that hard enough something has to give.

 

Around 20 seconds before Castillo got KTFO vs Corralles he was in TOTAL COMMAND.

Fuck......how many fights have we seen where it swings one way and then the other.

Lewis people had to URGE the mother to get up off his stool and celebrate....Klitschko was making him look bad by running around the ring in total fury.

Lewis had a good 6th...then plutzed on his stool. Who knows what happens in the 7th. Does Vitali not get a second wind? Don't fighters get a second wind?

I am not wasting any more time with anyone who insists that Vitali Klitschko should have been ready for Lewis on 2 weeks notice.

"Different Animals" require different training camps.

 

Lewis reached in with a right hand which landed but not quite flush...it was the swiping nature of the end of the punch that tore the skin. It's not like Vitali's chin exploded into crimson with the massive uppercut he took in the 6th. Lewis glove "dragged" at the end, and that's what brings in the abrasive effect. Maybe if Lewis lands flush Vitali takes it and there is no cut. Thats what we mean by "luck".....

 

Should Lewis have been ready for Vitali on two weeks notice, though?

MTF

 

Yeah I am nearly sure that Marciano was given 3 minutes notice to get that job done too. Vitali, on the other hand, was not given that notice, and should have been. Fuck, even half-arsed useless psycho Gatti got 3 minutes vs Rodriguez. What a big fight that was.