If Floyd beats Hatton and then the winner of Mosley/Cotto

Let's hear about all of these tremendous wins at lightweight if you're going to ignore the disgraceful performances at higher weights.

Oh, and we've seen Duran get his ass kicked in big fights, too, so your confidence in Duran is what it is.

 

agREED

 

mayweather is already one of the greatest lightweights of all time. he is also a decent welterweight.

 

The lightweight division must have a pretty crappy history if that's the case. I would hope he couldn't crack a top-20 135er list.

 

keep waiting, and tossing pennies into the nearest fountain

 

if u think there are 20 lightweights who can defeat mayweather, I would hope you consider watching a new sport.

 

You said he was one of the greatest... not one of the best. Also, Floyd only looked good at 135 once... vs. Ndou. Unless you want to count the Augustus exhibition.

 

So mIKE - by your rationale Robison is also not that great? Floyd should rank up there with Robinson?

 

WHOAH!!!!!:eeeek: :eeeek:

YOU & REED AGREE on a FLOYD MAYWEATHER Topic???...:dunno:

WHAT's the CATCH,DOUB???:dunno:

Just Kidding:: ...It's just VERY Surprising to REED that we'd AGREE on a Floyd Topic...


REED

 

He's one of the greatest at 130. However he lacks the resume and time spent @ 135 to be considered among the greatest there.

 

I thought someone must've hacked into Double L's account when I read that.

 

well, for once you've made a reasonable statement regarding PBF. ::

 

anyone that thinks Floyd is not awesome prolly takes it up the butt

 

Floyd is nowhere near the level of Leonard, Duran, Hearns or Hagler. That's REEDiculous.

If he were to beat Hatton and Cotto, then you could make a case. Until that happens he's not in their league.

To tell the truth, Hearns isn't in the league of Leonard, Duran or Hagler. Floyd's possibly closer to Tommy than the oher three.

 

Floyd still has yet to surpass Roy all time IMO as of right now. If he beats Hatton, and the Cotto-Mosley winner then I'd probably have to place him above Roy in terms of greatness, even though I believe Roy was more talented/better.

 

Let's Keep it REAL,NEIL...

Floyd Fought Castillo TWICE,Victoriano Sosa & Phillip N'Dou @ 135...That ISN'T a "Greatest Lightweight of All Times' Resume,Dog":nono: ...

Put it THIS Way,Floyd's Done MORE @ Welter than he's Done @ Lightweight,N REED's Opinion...

& He can IMPROVE UPON his Welter Situation,but his Lightweight Status is ALREADY Established,for BETTER or WORSE...




REED

 

This is true. Theres only 3 lightweights I'd favor over Floyd. They are Whitaker, Duran, and Chavez. Theres also a few lightweights who I'd favor Floyd over, but only slightly such as Camacho, Mosley, DLH, Dejesus, Ortiz, and Rosario.

 

The difference between Roy and Floyd could be that Floyd has better guys around him than Roy did. Whether you hate Roy or not, when you look at the list of top ten contenders for the past 10 years (especially at 175) Roy beat all but one (Glen Johnson). It's similar to how Muhammad Ali was in the 70's. Win or lose, he beat almost all of the top ten guys (Larry Holmes).

Floyd can't really say that because he spends so much time talking about who is and isn't worthy to face him.

Beating Hatton and the winner of Mosley-Cotto would serve his legacy well because it would put him back on the road he initially started out on. After Castillo, he deviated and took a path of least resistance. At some point that's going to catch up to him once he gets into a serious scrap.

 

I think Neil meant that on a who-beats-who basis, theres very few lightweights who could Floyd. If thats what he means, I agree with him. But in terms of greatness, no Floyd is not one of the GREATS at that weight.

 

ALL-TIME Rankings,Per Weight,R RARELY Based on HEAD-To-HEAD Matchups,NEIL...

U KNOW that...

REED has NO Doubts that Roy Jones would BEAT ANY of the All-Time Great Middleweights N a Head-to-Head Situation,yet Roy ISN'T Brought Up Alot N the All Time Middleweight Debates...

Same Rule Applies to Floyd...Yeah,there AREN'T 20 Former Lightweight Champs that would BEAT Floyd Head-to-Head,but there's ALOT that Held their Titles Loooooooooonger,UNIFIED & Have BETTER 135lb Resumes...



REED

 

Exactly...

REED

 

It's better served comparing Floyd to Oscar in the sense that there isn't one weight class he dominated because every few years he moved to a different one.

Duran travelled through many weight classes "however" he had 70+ at 135...that's where his legacy is.

 

Floyd has ALREADY SURPASSED Hearns,MUZSE...

Like it or Not,Dog...

Hearns was a FREAK N Terms of his TALENT,but he's MOST Known for LOSING the BIGGEST Fights of his Career...

KO Losses to Leonard AND Hagler,During his PRIME...The 2 BIGGEST Fights he EVER had...Then he Gets STRETCHED by Iran Barkley...

Floyd's WON ALL of his Biggest Fights & UNTIL he Fought DeLa,Floyd SHINED N his BIGGEST Fights...Hearns CANNOT Say that:nono: ...

Floyd has ALSO Done the Multi-Weight Thing as Hearns Did AND he's UNDEFEATED...

Floyd's Still a "Work in Progress",but it's ALREADY Safe to Say that he's BETTER than Tommy Hearns was,Historically...Not NEARLY as PHYSICALLY Gifted as Hearns was,but a BETTER Prizefighter...

REED Still Thinks Leonard was BETTER than Floyd,but Not Necessarily Hagler...

REED

 

Whether or not you think PBF is deserving of a status that's up there with Hagler, Duran and SRL, I think everyone must acknowledge that PBF's sleepy performances against the likes of Baldmomir and ODH are going to hurt his chances. And maybe in that respect his decision to face a junior welter-weight in his next fight is the right one, assuming that he'll be able to take more chances and be more impressive against the smaller Hatton.

I recognize that it's strictly antecdotal, but every casual fan who I talked to who had tuned in for the ODH fight (and for many it was the first fight they'd watched in ages), whether they thought that PBF won or not, found himself in ODH's camp for the simple fact that from their point of view, the entertainment value of the fight was severely compromised by PBF and PBF alone. ODH, in everyone's estimation, gave a good account of himself. PBF did not. And I even heard comments like, "They don't fight like they used to. Boxing isn't the same." And isn't it a shame? That in a day and age when we have great fights like Castillo/Corrales, Marquez/Vazquez and Toney/Jirov that people could have the impression that, "boxing isn't what it used to be?"

 

The problem with this is...

Hearns losing via KO to a prime Leonard and Hagler isn't quite the same as career best wins of Gatti, Castillo, Corrales and a 34 year old DLH.

Two of those four were in their prime and none of the four are on the level of Hagler or Leonard.

History will provide more persepctive but when I look at Floyd now, he's close to Hearns not necessarily ranked ahead of him. But that's just my opinion.

 

Now THIS is a more traditional Double Elian post...not that poppycock post when he agREED with REED.

:bears:

 

agREED...can't place mayweather ahead of hearns yet.

 

REED just cause Hearns is best known for his losses, doesnt mean he didnt have any wins. Are you forgetting that he obliterated Cuevas(who was at least as good as Corrales), Duran, and convincingly schooled master boxer Benitez. Hell he even has good wins over dangerous Roldan, and beat undefeated Hill when he was way past his prime, and above his best weight.

And his first two losses were to LEONARD, and HAGLER! When the hell has Floyd ever fought a guy remotely CLOSE to the level of Ray, or Hagler? Hell he hasnt even beaten anyone as good as Benitez.

 

I understand that fans sometimes get upset (and rightly so) at the bias (real or perceived) for "golden age" fighters - sometimes the 70's/80's or in other cases even earlier (30's-60's) and try to bring a dose of reality or balance to the argument.

But there's no need to "over-correct" to do this.

Duran started boxing at as a super-bantamweight and got to lightweight by year 3.

In his 17th fight he knocked out Ernesto Marcel (who had 26 fights and went on to reign at FWT, beating Arguello, Serrano, Nemoto, and Antonio Gomez along the way).

In his 26th fight he beat Kobayashi, and Robinson Garcia in his 27th.

He beat 43-1 Buchanan and claimed the title in his 29th fight at 21 years of age.

He then reigned at lightweight for 6 years, fighting at or above the weight (non-title fights), twice avenging his only loss during that time to DeJesus, defending the title 12 times and beating DeJesus 2x, Viruet, Fernandez, Mamby, Lampkin and Thompson along the way.

Moves up to Welter - from 135 to 147 - and beats Palomino, Brooks, and goes 1-1 with Leonard, going 9-1 (4) during that period.

From 81-89; from 30-38 years of age and from 152-166 lbs.; from Jr. Middle to Super Middle and 3-4 divisions above his best weight (or 2-3 above if you consider Welterweight)....

He goes 13-6 (5)....but along the way he beat Davey Moore for the WBA jr. middleweight title; beat Iran Barkley for the WBC middleweight title at 38 years of age; and also beat Pipino Cuevas, Minchillo, and gave Hagler a very good, competitive fight for the undisputed Middleweight title.

Along the way, though, he lost by 2-round KO to Hearns; lost to Benitez; lost to Leonard in a 3rd fight; and lost to unheralded fighters like Laing and Sims.

Yes, Duran was inconsistent at higher weights (and I'd argue that really began at Jr. Middleweight and above) - but he also pulled off some great wins there. Especially considering he was in his mid/late 30's and fighting at 154 or 160 after 72+ fights.....and even further considering that Duran is a relatively small fighter at 5'7" (IF that).

He was always going up against bigger fighters that were prime or close to prime.

His reign at lightweight and his stay at 147 lbs. were excellent.

In my opinion, btw, SRL-Duran II is often way exaggerated...I thought Duran had won 3 rounds going into the 8th and was competitive. Why he chose to go "no mas"; I'll never know.

I do think that in Mythical Match-Ups Duran is often a tad overrated as pretty much being able to do anything against anyone....folks have to remember that when we usually do MMs or "who beats who", it is greats against OTHER ALL-TIME GREATS and we should discuss accordingly.

That being said, PBF's career is not done apparently; let's see if he gets done everything we're saying in this thread he needs to.

Peace.

 

Mayweather being unimpressive and especially convincing against De La Hoya does more to hurt him rather than it not being exciting. Let's say the PBF-DLH fight was similar to the Baldomir or Goyo Vargas fights. Dull, but Mayweather wins 11 rounds or so. That's better for his all-time ranking than winning 7-8 rounds in a fight that was alright/decent (IMO).

I don't think it should really affect a guy's all-time ranking just because he's not the most crowd-pleasing, provided he gets the job done in convincing fashion.

Some of the ATGs have have stinky fights and been rather dull fighters.

Try watching the first 13 rounds of Duran-Lampkin.

Ugh.