If Pernell would have had KO power.....

Duran haters are just guys with jobs. You know what it is, past, present, future.

 

Liston doesn't count as a great win?

 

Ridiculous.

Liston, Patterson, Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Bonavena, Lyle...etc

he beat everyone there was to beat.

Pre-exile Ali was virtually invincible.

Duran greater than Ali?

:l1:

 

Nope, Liston threw both fights.

 

Yes he is greater than Ali and to be honest it's not even close.

Invicible? Nope. He more or less got KTFO by Cooper for starters. If you want invincible, look no further than late 70's Duran, the perfect fighting machine.

I'm not exactly a Floyd fan but he's better than Ali in just about every single way apart from balls.

 

I'm not an Ali hater, I think he was a great heavyweight to watch, so fluid and graceful etc, he really had the style of a much lighter man.

But I truly believe if it wasn't for his personality and historical significance, he wouldn't be rated even close to where he generally is now.

Liston was a great win too, but overall I honestly think he's just nowhere near as good as people make him out to be.

I think Robinson is a much, much better fighter than Ali for example, but Ali gets ranked alongside guys like Robinson.

 

woulda coulda shuolda

 

I've never been a big fan of Ali, but you cannot discount the effect of a 3 1/2 year hiatus during his prime fighting years.

If the Ali that fought Ernie Terrell fought Frazier, it would not have been competitive at all.

Not to mention, and it's often overlooked, Ali fought 3 times in 5 months including the first Frazier fight after coming back. I've always thought he rushed the Frazier fight.

 

seriously, it's stupid::

 

that's bullshit

he caught a whooping in that first fight and he quit

he did something fishy the second time, but the first was just Sonny Liston getting embarassed

 

wooder, colder, pork shoulder

 

If you could have Riddick Bowe with Evander Holyfield's sheer will and dedication (and maybe his "supplements").. that might be the greatest HW of all time

 

I still think Tyson with Valuev's arms woulda been really formidable

 

I don't know that his punches would have had quite the same speed and effect with those kind of arms on that kind of frame

 

I actually think Tyson's short arms worked brilliantly and complemented his style perfectly. He's not an outside fighter, so long arms would only hinder his style.

His short arms could generate absolutely incredible leverage inside, shorter distance to travel, and combined with his brilliant handspeed, the punches would land so fast the opponents simply wouldn't see them coming.

 

How about Allan Green with Roy Jones' colon?

 

Or what about Salido with wald pussy's vagina?

 

That'd be hot

 

Nah. Ali has the greatest resume of any heavy ever...and it's not even close. You're trying to make it sound like he was more style than substance, but that just isn't true.

And to be fair...Duran's persona had something to do with his status as well.

To me...it's a toss-up as to which one is greater.

 

Duran is blessed and holy but I wouldn't raise many objections to Ali ranking above him p4p. A cogent case can be made either way.

It does piss me off that the same people who criticize Duran's inconsistency as a physically declined fighter in his second decade at championship level NEVER apply the Young, Norton, Shavers, Spinks fights to diminish Ali. Of course, it would be absurd to, but if you will be absurd, be absurd consistently.

 

"Both Ali and Duran suck and are also Homos. You are all Sugarists"

- Free Ike

 

Muhammad Ali with Nikolai Valuev's speed

 

I dunno about this. While I do think the two fighters can be looked on as equals, I would say Duran was clearly the more inconsistent of the two during the second part of their careers. He had good wins and bad losses mixed in after the first Leonard fight, which was his career high point.

Ali on the other hand, didn't bounce around so much with his peformances during the 70's. But when he started to really slide...probably from the 3rd Norton fight on...he didn't rebound and have impressive performances. During the 60's title reign...he was untouchable. From 1970 - 1975, he wasn't quite as good as he was in the 60's, but still good enough to be the best heavy on the planet. From 1976 to 1977 and during his ill-advised 80's comeback fights...he showed a clear decline. But even then....of the controversial fights then...the only one I thought he lost was to Norton. He deserved the decisions in both the Young and Shavers fights.

It wasn't like he was mixing in losses to Thad Spencer and Buster Mathis and bouncing back to beat Foreman and Frazier.

Again...this doesn't mean that Ali is the better fighter, but I would definitely say he was more consistent. Part of the Duran legend is based on his inconsistent peformances. He was able to bounce back from bad peformances against Benitez (somewhat excusable) and Laing (not excusable) to beat Moore and give Hagler a good fight at Middleweight (although I think Hagler was the clear winner). He then got splattered by Hearns and lost to Robbie Sims and had some unimpressive wins against mediocre opposition before bouncing back and winning a Middleweight title against Barkley.

At the time...Duran's successes were even more significant due to his looking not-so-great in previous performances. It was like "Holy shit...he did it again??!!"

I would definitely say Duran was the more inconsistent of the two.

 

There's the weight issue to factor in, though. If Thad Spenser & Buster Mathis had been a lean 230lb they'd have been much bigger potential banana skins.

Overall Id definitely agree with your point, but it isn't quite apples and apples

 

To be honest, I don't think the weight divisions are a factor at all because Duran was inconsistent within the individual weight classes. His time at 154 was a roller coaster ride....probably mostly due to his inability to get up for lesser opponents.

And to me, it's not really a knock on Duran. Duran's inconsistency was part of his legend...bouncing back and winning fights he was expected to lose.

 

The higher weight does raise the bar though. An Ali at 80% against Joe Bugner still scrapes through. An Ali against a Joe Bugner who happened to be 15lb heavier might have a 'Kirkland Laing night'.

 

Joe Bugner 15 lbs. heavier would be David Tua fat

 

Sorry man, too much "what ifs" and "mights" for me here. When analyzing fighters careers, I prefer to consider what actually happened as opposed to what might have happened.

Duran's career speaks for itself just fine...it is one of the best ever. There is no need to give him extra credit for imaginary scenarios.

 

No ifs or mights mate, Laing,Hearns, Hagler & Simms all had size advantages over Duran that Ali never had to contend with. I just think that has to be factored in when we compare their later careers

 

Actually, no. When you start re-inventing fighters as something other than what they were (as you did with Ali's opponents), then you are playing the "what if" and "might" game.

This is also why I am never interested in p4p discussions, because there is too much wiggle room for fans of particular fighters to latch onto.

And as someone who watched the part of Duran's career we are discussing unfold as it happened...his post Leonard I career was remarkably inconsistent. And...like I said before...that is part of what made Duran the legend he was...he rose from the ashes again and again. And just when you thought he was finished, he would bounce back with a strong performance. It really was something to see.