International Flavor Dominates (by Jaws)

Actually I said it during the Lewis reign before and after his knockout loses. And I still think it with Wladimir.

Everyone has a punchers chance against any HW in history, but when push comes to shove, physical facts are hard to deny..

 

I'm not going to argue this. Physical atributes do mean allot.
However I will not accept when people say that the top fighters of the past would not be competetive or would not be top 30 fighters when we currently have same sized fighters with arguably less skill that are winning belts and in some cases defending & holding onto these belts for a few years.
I know you can understand this point of view.

 

Just the difference is strength. Magnus is literally 3-4 times stronger then Byrd and could hold him on the ground much like you or I could hold a seven year old child down.

In a boxing match Byrd would slaughter him, but in a scuffle with clothes on and something for Magnus to grab onto it would be devestation. Just my opinion, but I would almost guarantee Chris Byrd getting slammed and bludgeoned on the ground by Magnus.

 

You're guessing wrong, 185lb Rocky would be in the cruiser division. However I am saying that a 210lb Joe Louis could certainly beat Wlad. Seems ridiculous to even make the comparison to me after just a victory over Lamon Brewster! How is it that middleweights like Byrd, Toney and Jones can jump up and win heavyweight titles but not the greatest heavyweight of all time? Somehow these tall guys impress you, to me they look unbalanced and basically unskilled. How about a small guy like Tyson? He wouldn't stand a chance either I suppose? I'm talking about the 218lb Prime Tyson.

 

I understand that point of view to a point.. But 185-190 pound guys like Marciano and Dempsey would have their hands absolutely full with today's top 5-10 HW's..

 

Actually Rocky would probably dehydrate down to make a 175lb Lt. Heavyweight weigh in.

 

I agree and he would absolutly DESTROY the division. Problem with Rocky is he has no reach, roiding up to fight heavyweight wouldn't do him much good.

 

Yeah but they wouldn't even be heavies today. Thats why so far no-one has really mentioned them.
However though , I would pick a prime Dempsey to break down Chris Byrd.

 

Byrd, Toney and Jones never beat Wlad to win their version of the HW title. And yes, Louis would easily duplicate the feat of Jones, Toney and Byrd if he got to fight Ruiz or an old Holyfield instead of Wlad..

And my opinion has nothing to do with Wlad's win. I have argued for years that Lennox Lewis would have been my betting favorite against any HW Champion in history.

Tyson was a tremendous puncher in his prime. Any puncher has a legitimate chance to win any HW fight. Joe Louis was a hard, sharp puncher but he didn't hit like a prime Tyson...

 

He didn't break down Gene Tunney...

 

By the way, I've also always argued that no one in the history of boxing under 200 pounds would beat Marciano over 15 rounds..

 

193 lb RJJ UD 14-1 Marciano

 

I think we know what would happen if a swarmer like Marciano kept Roy in a corner..

If Johnson was able to punch that ticket using the pressure formula, Marciano may have killed RJ..

And I like Roy as a LH..

 

RJJ UD over Marciano? :: :: In order for that to happen they would have to have a 75ft ring!

 

obviously u dont if ur using the Glen Johnson version in a MM type idea. I appreciate the back-up in all this, or decency i should call it, but Roy would get on his bike and potshot the daylights out of Marciano.

It wouldn't be close at all, total stylistic mismatch

 

yeah cause marciano did a great job with movement

 

KO'd two of the greatest pure boxers of all time!

 

really, care to elaborate

 

Serious question... Who did Roy beat at 175 or higher that makes you think he could deal with a balls to the walls swarmer like Marciano?

On the Marciano side I would throw out the fact that he unplugged Charles and Walcott who are generally ranked among the top technically sound pure boxers in history. Due to the easy age counter argument, I won't even mention Archie Moore.

 

nobody, and I'm big on arguing against Roy, but the discrepency in speed and technical ability here would be outrageous.

35-40 year old past prime Charles should've won their first fight, and Walcott was also doing quite well before getting caught. Marciano caught up to aging has been light heavyweights...I think Charles beats marciano 4 times out of 10 at any rate, looking simply at the first fight between them.

 

You call them aging "Light heavyweights" both Charles and Walcott were naturally bigger men than Roy Jones Jr..

And from a techical standpoint, they were far superior boxers to Jones...

But I have to stop debating.. It's against my religion to stick up for the most overrated HW Champion ever...

 

dsimon writes:

Nice!!! stick a fork in your shark steak for this round of hyperbole cause Jaws is done. :bears:

 

anyone claiming victory on that side of the argument of a Louis/Klitschko match-up should be forced to go quail hunting with Dick Cheney

 

dsimon writes:

Rocco I am trying to stay out of this.... so hard. I have just been giving support to others as they address this hyperbole.

But I got to get involved and support Jaws on this one!! You see Chris Byrd is the product of 100 years of genetic evolution, he is a far cry from the Billy Conn's that were slick boxers in Louis' day. Genetically in that 100 years Byrd's evolution makes Conn look like a monkey you follow me?

So the fact that Byrd beat one of the invincible beamoths Jaws mentions is just a product of Byrd and all boxers genetic evolution and of course all the progress that has been made in boxing in the last 100 years.

You see, guys like Johnson they really didn't understand the science of how to brain a man with the fist... why I am quite sure men have only been actually fighting with a closed fist for the last 400 years. Look on Egyptian pyrmids, you don't see anybody making a fist do you? And them Japanese? they still don't know how to make a fist!

 

dsimon writes:

No need to accuse Jaws of being a creationist on top of the rest of the lunacy. No Sanders is simply the product of genetics and the modernized south african boxing program.

 

I'd make Klitchko a favourite Jaws, although Louis could very well catch him. But that wasn't my point. My point is that Louis is not the no chin having fighter you're telling he is. That's all.

 

he has a bad chin at best. And I'm not talking heart, which he had in double spades. For me Chavez, despite his quit jobs, had a GREAT chin. Chin is simply the ability to take a punch, which Louis couldn't. Fighting through adverity is a much diff. story, and if he was in with a guy his size, or someone like Ruiz or Norton or Quarry, he'd be either a favorite or close to it.

But Klitschko would murder him

 

Mike Tyson is much bigger and stronger than Joe Louis was. He was also faster and hit harder. Also, he never beat a good, big heavyweight (250 + range)

Also... Byrd, Toney and Jones have a combined one victory over a good, big heavyweight. And that is Byrd's win over Vitali. Shit argument.

 

dsimon writes:

No its not. Jones goes out of the equation, he never seriously was a heavyweight. He beat Ruiz big deal. Toney beat heavyweights, size was not a factor that contributed to his demise. hell Peter just got a lot better, for all we know Peter would beat Vlad if they fought again:dunno:. And Byrd was competitive in the division including against Mccline who is a big Heavyweight BTW.

There is no evidence that Toney wouldn't give a good account against a big heavyweight and there is no evidence that Byrd was diminished because of the size of his opponent.

There is no evidence that Tyson hit harder than Louis. Both guys could hit with both hands though.

 

Nah man, I don't agree with this. A trained professional boxer has a trillion times the reflexes, handspeed, and intelligence than a big stiff who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Byrd may come across as a prissy fruity boxer in the ring but I'm willing to bet if he had to throw down on the street, his punches and handspeed would be a hell of a lot more deadly than any average guy.
Byrd's bodypunches and jabs would render any non-fighter insensible. You can't underrate a world class trained boxer who's trained for years and years to punch, block, slip and move. No way! That's a slap in the face to those who've trained years and years in the art of boxing to suggest that some 6'3, 280lb strong man is just going to grab and squeeze a trained fighter.
I don't buy it. Strength means nothing if you're a big overweight slow lethargic stiff who only is able to lift and move heavy things. Don't ever underestimate a world class professional fighter of any discipline.:nono: