International Flavor Dominates (by Jaws)

I'm talking about the LL's and the Klitschko's when I say good, big heavies. Not guys like McCline.

There is a TON of evidence that Byrd struggled with bigger guys.

There's no evidence that Toney wouldn't give a good account of himself against a big heavyweight because he didn't fight any good ones.

 

dsimon writes:

I don't know Steve the way I see it a good big heavy is a good heavy who is big. A good fast heavy, assuming he has the size of a heavy, is a good heavy who is fast. Holyfield showed years ago that a good heavy who has a great work rate can be a great heavy. He even beat Bowe... a pretty good big heavy. Holy was not outclassed by Lewis, he was beat by Lewis because Lewis has a lot of skill. Ray Mercer, a small heavy, with decent skills, arguably beat Lewis BTW.

LL and Klitchko are very skilled heavies that is why they are so good. Their size is secondary.

That is my point about Toney. One could argue reasonably that Toney was not a heavyweight and had no business being in the ring with Klitchko, but one can't argue that Klitchko would dominate him because of his size because we don't know. Klitchko did not outclass Sam Peterwho is not that big for a heavyweight compared to the bigger guys in the division.

The truth is Steve that when the super big boys first started to make an appearance in the division everybody claimed the sky was falling, or closer to their heads (pardon the pun) and you know what? there is virtually no proof that the size of a good size heavy weight has changed from around 215 and upwards. Klitschko wins because of his skills, Valuev loses because he does not have the skill level to beat other guys consistently in the division... size is irrelevant.

 

Wow, if you can't see the difference between big, athletic, coordinated 240-250 pounders like Lennox Lewis and big, lumbering oafs like Valuev, then this discussion really is pointless.

Also, if size is irrelevant then why bother having weight divisions at all? Why not just match Donaire against Wlad tomorrow?

When talent is similar, size is a huge advantage. Period.

 

hahah a worlds strongest man WINNER is definitely not slow.

and chris byrd trains to box, not street fight. he would be massacred by magnus ver magnusson in a real street confrontation.

 

dsimon writes:

Valuev is not oafish. He just does not punch very hard despite his size... like a lot of big heavies BTW. Lewis happens to have punched hard and so does MCcall, despite a size difference. Klitschko is fast and accurate... so was Louis.

There is a cutoff for heavyweights. After around 215-230 the extra size just does not make much difference. History has shown that to be the case. Size is one of many advantages it simply is not absolute and if you can't see that with such clear evidence... like who has been the champions in the heavyweight division you might want to look in the mirror regarding Pointlessness pal.

 

Street fighting isn't a f*cking profession. If you don't know how to fight, then you're at a disadvantage no matter where the hell the fight is taking place.
There are many big strong guys who don't know sh*t, guys who would bend over and cry if they took a shot to the kidneys. If you aren't trained in any type of fighting then you're likely at a major disadvantage against somebody who is.
F*ck Magnus' strength. Heck, Ronnie Coleman can bench the earth for all I care, he's not gonna do jack sh*t in a fight. He'd gas out very quickly, he'd be a slow lethargic f*ck in need of a gas mask after 5 seconds. He'd get laid out by a jab/right hand combo from even a moderate boxer on any grounds.
Unless Magnus has a talent in some form of combat, he's not a favourite over Byrd. You think boxers can't convert their style to the street? Most fights end on the feet, usually with punches to the head or body.
And Magnus only has about an inch over Byrd. 6'2 to 6'3. You think Hulk Hogan would do sh*t on the street? No, he never had any real training in fighting, he was just a big man.
Remember the story in his book when he did a pretend-boxing match with Foreman for charity? Foreman hit him with a jab to the body and Hogan almost died, literally.
You think Magnus is gonna brush off Byrd's lightning fast left/right body shots or head shots? Get outta here with that crap! ::

 

dsimon writes:

Lok has a great story that illustrates your point to a tee Hanzy. You should PM him and ask him to tell it to you.

 

LOK has a lot of stories.:: Did he ever tell you the story about how he used to kick 10 feet basketball rims? I mean literally KICK them. :laughing:

 

Ummm. We are talking about the size of HW's evolving. You ask about who have been champions in the HW Division. Recently, Lewis and then Wladimir Klitschko have been the two most dominant champions. Do you think it's a strange coincidence that they just happen to both be in the 6'5" -6'6" and 240-250 pound range?

The concept of weight after 215-230 not making a difference is antiquated in the case of skilled and conditioned fighters like Wlad, Lennox and even Vitali. These guys aren't Primo Carnera, they are chiseled big men that use techique and amazing size to deliver powerful shots.

It's always painful to admit that our heroes of yesterday don't stack up well against current athletes, but history clearly shows that athletics are effected by evolution. Athletes are getting bigger and stronger. It is what it is.

 

BTW Jaws, your article was pretty good. Good work.

 

dsimon writes:

I am sure those rims had about as much chance as the watermelon did.::

 

dsimon writes:

If evolution were that fast the Egyptians would still have had simian features. Vlad has JUST recently emerged as a dominant champion. Lewis is the only example and Lewis happened to be a big heavyweight. What if Potvkin becomes the next champ? Would that be an aboration? or what if Sam Peter turns out to be pretty damn good... another aboration? ::

In football, a game where size has had a major impact you can see this impact because of the amount of guys who are much bigger and faster at the bigger weight. This has not happened in the heavyweight division.

 

Tunney was down for over 14 seconds. The count was delayed because Dempsey forgot to go to a neutural corner.
However when Dempsey went down , the ref counted him out without Tunney being put into a neutural corner. Tunney was standing right next to the ref.
Also wasn't Dempsey an old man at the time ?

 

The only thing I'm hearing is talk about Wlad and Vitali.

WTF would you guys be saying if those two guys decided to never get into boxing.
Basing a whole argument on two fighters when this debate covers such a broad spectrum is ridiculous.

 

Really? So Lennox Lewis didn't really have a dominant run?

Those are some nice what if's? But we already know that Wlad beat Sam Peter, although I'm not sure how Peter fits into the equation. If I'm not mistaken, he actually weighed 1 pound less than Wlad when they fought. So I wouldn't call him a small HW by any means. That's pretty ridiculous.

 

Yeah Trplsec but with the exception of only 3 recent fighters , allot of these guys these days that are 230 , 250 could afford to lose 30 or 40 lbs .... Sam Peter at 250 is about 40lbs overweight.
Brewster could afford to lose atleast 20lbs ...
Rahman is another fat bastard.
James Toney would weight about 195 or less if he was in the proper shape.

If fighters like Jersey Joe Walcott had that extra weight , he would be 235 as well. He came in shape though and was shredded up ...
Joe Louis was 6'2 and into the 220's when he had a bit of extra weight on him.

 

But you're missing the point. If guys like Brewster, Peter and Rahman fought at a svelte 215 pounds, they would be able to compete with Lewis then and Wlad now.

Also, Walcott didn't need to carry 235. In his era he could tip-in at 196 and still out weight the current champions (Charles, Marciano) by better than 10 pounds..

Simple question.. Do you seriously think that Walcott would weigh in at 196 if he were scheduled to fight Klitschko tomorrow? Or do you think he'd beef up a little bit?

 

Thats hard to say but at 200lbs he was shredded. He could come in at 220 and still look skinny ...
The point I'm making here is debating exactly how much bigger and how much stronger the current fighters really are today .
IMO with the exception of only 3 recent fighters (Lewis & Klits) , 99% percent of the heavy division is overweight.
If they were not overweight , they would be approximately the same size as allot of the old time fighters.

For example , a fighter like Brewster is 230 with altleast 20lbs of fat on him. If Joe Louis carried around that same amount of fat , he would be almost the same size.
When Louis did put on some weight and still looked somewhat skinny , he was 220.

 

:: CYC has changed what we are talking about at least twice.

 

What do you mean ? Seriously.

I'm talking about the same exact thing as always. :dunno:

 

dsimon writes:

Why do you think that Lewis' size was the reason he was a dominant heavyweight? I think it was his skills. Razor Ruddock was as big and was actually considered quite good before a small Mike Tyson beat him up twice. Valuev obviously has some skills... though it is easy in hindsight to say he doesn't cause he lst his last fight.

Sam beat Toney and Peter looked like he jumped a level fighting Toney the second fight. Peter is a typical good sized heavyweight, he is not a super big heavyweight. I used him as an example for this reason.

I also used Peter because nobody would say that he wins because of his size.

You are deluded into thinking that there is some supremacy established in the heavyweight division because of the athletic ability of big heavy weights... You can keep thinking this but empirically it is factually simply not true.

Again, if we were arguing about linemen, or football players in general we wouldn't be having this debate unless I was a fool. The mistake you and Jaws make is assuming that all things evolve progressively and that they all evolve the same way. I will pm the rest of this post as not to write too much.

 

Why not?? He might have been like me and never jumped off of Wlad's bandwagon. I told all of you at BT Wlad was the future of the sport and you all laughed and after his losses you laughed harder but I stuck with it and guess what I WAS RIGHT so no more laughing just hate towards Wlad from most of you because he's proved you all wrong just like I said he would.:laughing:

 

Even though Sanders was overweight by 25lbs of blubber ...

What does that put him at if he was actually in shape ? 205 ?

 

So Tony Galento and Buddy Bear were 240 of muscle then?

seriously dude, just do us a favor and go eat a gun

 

Dude, you avoided answering my question.. If Walcott were going to challenge Wladimir Klitschko tomorrow would he come in at his normal 196 or would he try to beef up some?

 

:: You are the worless loser that sould just bite the bullet ...

Coming back and asking me about Galento & Bear just proves that you didn't even understand what I was pointing out.
I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

Why would your dumb ass bring up Galento and Bear after I just pointed out to you that Sanders who KO'd Wlad would only be about 205 if he was actually in shape instead of having 25lbs of blubber on him.
Guess who else fought around 205.

Do you get it yet ? Probably not because you are an idiot.

 

He would probably beef up some. I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make here .
If he beefed up some , that would make him just about the same size as some current heavyweights.
This is what I have been saying all along. I'm not sure what you are pointing out here though ?

 

www.dictionary.com/inference

www.dictionary.com/commonsense

some reading material

 

dsimon writes:

The point CYC made is very interesting. Guys also can be in worse shape cause of less rounds and bigger gloves.

The game has changed.

I see the point in a simple way. Some guys are built big and as heavy weights and these guys can handle size in the division. Other guys simply are not strong enough to handle weight past a certain point.

It is worth remembering that Holy was a cruiserweight who nobody at the time thought could be a heavyweight. Would anyone really doubt that Holy couldn't in his prime be competative with Klitschko? He was at the very least competative with Lewis in the second fight.

 

holyfield would've fucked klitschko up