Is Larry Holmes' 20 title defenses as GREAT as Joe Louis' 25?

you are the Ruth Dudley Edwards of boxing history

 

AND...I don't know that Holmes is overrated at all. Every "top heavies of all time" list I have seen has him in the top ten, and usually in the top five.

 

Good one. I often see Irish as the Commander McBragg of boxing history.

And the rest of us here are his butler who repeatedly suffers through his outlandish historical revisions,

 

I'd say they're both about equal. Head to head, Holmes is the obvious pick, but you never know..

FWIW I think a prime Louis beats a prime Marciano, but I think Tyson stops Holmes every time.

 

seriously, it's crazy

Irish is smart, but he seems to be under the impression that being smart means he has to disagree with EVERYTHING

Ruth Dudley Edwards writes complimentary prose about Orangemen, dismisses the civil rights abuses of Northern Ireland and defends the Black and Tans, essentially a re-write to make the English benevolent caretakers of their little Irish brothers and sisters for 800 years... Irish does the same thing with boxing history

 

I would sooner be the Ruth Dudley Edwards of boxing history than the Boris Pasternak of boxing pre-history.

 

cute.

regardless, it is a ridiculous leap of monday-morning Quarterbacking to try and act as if having some shit thrown at a guy and having a chaotic corner can somehow turn a shocking two minute annihlation at the hands of Louis into a victory or even a competetive showing for Schmeling

"yeah, I bet if Hamed hadn't had that beer chucked on him as he made his way to the ring on a giant swing to face Barrera, he'd have knocked him out"

if a pleasant ring walk and the presence of Joe Jacobs can turn a savage, viscious beating into a win, thats the fucking story of the century

Louis was serious, he was ready, he was a FAR DIFFERENT man that night, but the NUMEROUS stories of him being maniacally obsessed with getting Schmeling in the ring, being completely focused on that one task, publicly announcing that he wouldn't consider himself champ until he beat the guy, none of that matters to you because of your warped insistence on Louis's greatness being some sort of liberal American conspiracy

every fucking time someone brings up Louis, you come out with the violins for poor Max Schmeling... Schmeling himself never made excuses about that fight, he doesn't need you rewriting history because you think Louis gets too much credit

 

I'd say Irish is more like the Pat Buchanan of boxing history.

 

No kidding. Sometimes, avenging your only loss by first-round KO the immediate year following your claiming of the title just ain't enough, huh? Irish demands more!

::

 

I see it differently, brother Jake.

Ali was Champ again once he beat Spinks --- & that's that, in terms of the lineage. Ali didn't have any fights in '79, but he didn't retire, either. Not at first. He was officially out before the year was over, though. Only Ali's retirement, as defending linear Champion, opens the gate.

This is a bit curious, as it voids the two points most people start Holmes' reign from --- either the Norton victory, or the beating of Ali. Holmes was clearly & plainly the best HW on the planet as soon as Ali retired, & I see no reason he shouldn't be recognised as such at that time. It wasn't necessary in my book for him to beat Ali --- the title was, realistically, already his. Besides, I give no validity to any claim Ali had to the linear title --- once you're retired, tough. You made your decision, you're no longer the champ.

I'd class Holmes as Champion from 79-85, beginning with Ali's September (I think?) retirement. That means his first defense was against Shavers (again, I think. Too lazy to look it up).

 

Sounds like we both see it the same - the point being that it didn't take for his beating a retired, shell version of Ali to gain designation as THE champ.

Your earlier post suggested something different. That's what I was arguing - that Holmes' recognition as champ should've began well before he fought that version of Ali. Historians point to that fight as the lineal title changing hands, but it just goes to show that title lineage too is a flawed concept.

I thought BWJ nailed it earlier - Holmes deserved recognition as champ the moment Weaver knocked out Tate.

 

I think you are both good dudes

 

Louis beat better opposition, reigned far longer, & made more defenses.

It is a slap in his face to call them, "equal," in this regard.