Is Mosley a HOF'er?

You realize that by playing up the popularity part of Oscar's career you're actually aiding any argument toward Gatti getting into the Hall of Fame don't you?

Besides, Oscar didn't truly unify any divisions either (most would have said Wink was the best at 154). Add in his inactivity over the past five years, it's difficult to brand him as dominant in any division either. Therefore, Gatti sold out AC how many times in a row?

If you count it for Oscar, you gotta count it for Gatti (using your own logic).

Plus, since 2002 when he beat Vargas, beat Yory Boy, arguably lost to Mosley, arguably beat Sturm, arguably took a dive against Vargas, knocked out Mayorga after Mayorga had been bludgeoned by Trinidad, sat out all of 2006 then came back to lose to Mayweather.

That's not exactly a great run over the last five years either.

Ifyou REALLY want to take it back to 2000 when he lost to Mosley the first time, he's only got Gatti and Castellejo prior to the Vargas win.

Also, don't forget the questionable wins over Quartey and Whitaker.

Can't have it both ways Mr. Jake. :nono:

 

There's a big difference between the popularity of Arturo Gatti and Oscar De La Hoya.

Gatti was a popular HBO fighter, who sold out Atlantic City regularly.

De La Hoya is a crossover/dresser star, a mainstream celebrity who set PPV records.

Outside of the old washed up heavyweights, he's the only boxer who's a household name in the U.S.

Anyway, Canastota doesn't exactly have the highest standards for induction, so I'll be surprised if either Shane or (especially) Oscar is not a first-ballot HOFer. And I expect Gatti to eventually get inducted too.

 

All I'm saying is that Oscar, Trinidad and Mosley are in the same boat as far as being 1st ballot or 2nd ballot guys.

Singling out Oscar because he's got a bigger bankroll doesn't make sense to me. Ultimately, that's what Jake is saying.

Until 2002 (and he hasn't done anything since) the biggest knock against Oscar is that he'd underwhelmed or lost every big fight he'd been in which he promptly picked up again once he rematched Mosley, then lost to Hopkins and Mayweather.

 

Damn, I almost started to include this, but was HOPING that you would see the difference without my having to explain it.

Gatti... was HBO's product. They (and Main Events) kept him relevant, despite the fact that he couldn't beat anyone better than a lower Top 10 contender.

Gatti was relevant on the East Coast, perhaps Canada (though unsure of outside Montreal) and to those who had HBO.

Oscar's popularity was (and is) to the point where his name would come up either 1st or 2nd even to the least knowledgable sports fan.

Oscar's run against top competition began in 1995.
Gatti never even had such a run - it barely made it out of the crawling stage.

Oscar's losses have come against:
Trinidad (controversial, and against a fellow future HOFer)
Mosley (close but clear, and against a fellow future HOFer)
Mosley again (controversial, and against a fellow future HOFer)
Hopkins (at middleweight, where Oscar had no business to begin with, and against a fellow future HOFer)
Mayweather (close but clear (though I'm sure plenty will disagree one way or another), and against a fellow future HOFer)

The Trinidad and 1st Shane fight came during Oscar's prime. The rest, beyond.

Gatti's losses:
King Solomon (who?)
Angel Manfredy (notable contender for about 20 seconds, wiped out against the rest of the best)
Ivan Robinson (feather-fisted never-was, who couldn't even get past Manfredy :: )
Ivan Robinson again (see above)
DLH (brave showing, but manhandled for the most part, against future HOFer at weight class he had no business at, during the time)
Ward (close/controversial, but in a fight that was supposed to be Micky's retirement party)
Mayweather (lost every second, against future HOFer)
Baldomir (lost all but one round (at best), against career journeyman)
Alfonso Gomez (career journeyman, best known for heart and will in Contender series)

I know you're smarter than this, so PLEASE PLEASE think on it before responding (other than admitting to seeing my point and the error of your ways)

 

Jake,

My post above your last sums up my point. Essentially, the separation between the three goes back to popularity and I'm saying that doesn't come into play here.

Regardless of how you slice it, if you use that as a factor to jumping Oscar over Mosley and Trinidad, you MUST use that criteria when talking about Gatti especially considering that's all Gatti's got going for him.

The point isn't about Oscar and Gatti, it's about your reasoning for skipping Oscar over Mosley and Trinidad...which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Either all are first ballot or none are.

It's really that simple.

 

Oscar was closer to the top at whatever divisions he campaigned at for a longer period of time. That, plus his noteriety, is what will qualify him as a 1st ballot HOFer at the end of the day, more so than Trinidad, and Shane. In that order.

THAT is what I'm saying.

Hall of Fame is a combo of achievement and noteriety. It sucks that Shane's star power never caught up with his skills, but it is what it is. It's enough to where he'll get into the HOF. Why can't that be good enough?

 

Based on achievements alone, how would you rank the three?

 

mosley beats everyone that de la hoya ever beat. too bad he was poorly managed during the prime of his career.

 

Also, you're kidding yourself if you honestly believe that popularity doesn't factor into who gets voted into the Hall of FAME.

Popularity alone doesn't get you in, which is why I so vehemently disagree anytime Gatti's name is brought up (and the sad part is, some actually believe HE is a 1st Ballot entry).

But at the same time, achievement alone doesn't always get you in, unless you were THAT great. Rarely does it get you in on the 1st try, unless you go in during a year with "weak" competition. A lot of people disagreed on Ricardo Lopez making it in on the 1st try. If Shane retires tomorrow, and is voted through in 2012, I'd expect a similar outcry.

 

How so?

One of the biggest knocks against Oscar is that he spent a relatively short period of time in any division before moving to 147 when he fought from 1997 until 2001.

The close calls to Whitaker, Quartey, Trinidad and Mosley didn't stake his claim as the best at 147 at any point in time.

I just think what you're saying doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Hearns wouldn't deserve a 1st ballot nod because his career was the worst of Hagler, Leonard and Duran.

Based on notoriety, Leonard beats all of those guys hands down.

Oscar, Shane and Trinidad are 1st ballot guys under any circumstances. That's my point and position.

 

And Vernon Forrest beats every welterweight that Shane beat during his run.

If that's the basis, then we might as well just list the guys who will NEVER qualify.

 

In terms of achievement

1). Trinidad - Had a longer title reign than either at any weight

2). Mosley - lifted two titles directly from Oscar, therefore any greatness bestowed upon Oscar further enhances Shane's legacy. ::

3). De La Hoya - 2 WBO belts (Sturm and Bredhal) don't count in my eyes. Best championship win - MAGO fight.

 

how does one qualify for the hall of fame?

while we're on the subject of gatti, perhaps we can compare to some of the actors.

bruce willis was never nominated for an oscar nor will he ever get one (at least imo). then there's a guy like phillip seymour hoffman who's won an oscar and will probably a few more (or at least get nominated), but who will end up in the hollywood walk of fame first (willis might already be in it)?

actually, that might have been a terrible example, but you get the point.

 

Madonna sold more records than the Beatles.

 

then we'll just have to agree to disagree and end our discussion here.

 

gatti sold more tickets than someone like daniel zaragoza.

 

I don't really think that (Mosley over Oscar), I wanted to get your goat a bit. ::

"However"

In terms of career, I certainly believe Trinidad gets the top spot, followed by Oscar then Shane.

Trinidad had a longer tenure at 147, partially unified 154 by beating two young champs (Reid and Vargas) and ruined both in the process plus he beat a legit champion at 160 (Joppy).

Oscar's WBO belts (three actually...Sturm, Bredahl and vacant lightweight title won against Jorge Paez) ring as hollow achievements to me.

Plus, Oscar's "best" win since 2000 is his 2002 win over Vargas and most feel Trinidad ruined Vargas in 1999.

Trinidad > Oscar

 

well that said, I don't like the direction of this discussion, as I've been forced to speak on GLH's behalf. ::

 

No, FUCK THAT!!!!:nono: :nono:

REED DISagrees about ya'll AGREEING to Disagree...


REED:laughing:

 

AgREED.

 

phonetap puts oscar above trinidad because oscar has never lost 12 rounds to zero against anyone...::

 

:: :laughing:

 

Funny....but you have a valid point.

 

That's difficult to argue against.

::

"However"

Trinidad never pounded the canvas after a phantom body punch either.